Time Spent at Station Questions

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Time Spent at Station Questions 15/07/2013 at 17:23 #47184
SPADmad
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104 posts 		One query
Im running waterloo with many trains arriving after their departure time for their next working. They stop then 30secs later TRTS is given.
To make it more realistic how long would it take for a train to unload, reload, platform work and driver end changes to all be completed if done at top-speed?

Thanks SPADmad
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Time Spent at Station Questions 15/07/2013 at 17:33 #47185
John
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884 posts 		If it's the same driver in and out and s/he changes ends without delay, I would expect no more than 5 minutes, although the trains length is a factor.

If it's a change of driver and the trains platform is advertised in advance of the trains arrival so that the driver is waiting at his/her cab ready to jump on and set up, you could probably do it in 3.
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Time Spent at Station Questions 15/07/2013 at 20:14 #47193
TimTamToe
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656 posts 		Haven't got the exact info to hand at the mo but search for network rail's rules of the route and it will have the exact turnaround times for the various stock. I'll try and have a hunt out tomorrow for you.

Gareth
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Time Spent at Station Questions 15/07/2013 at 21:12 #47195
Jan
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890 posts 		Although one should probably keep in mind that the Timetable Planning Rules are planning values, so they might not always correspond to the actual performance, being either too pessimistic, or occasionally perhaps even too optimistic.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Time Spent at Station Questions 15/07/2013 at 22:01 #47204
AndyG
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1835 posts 		SimSig does have default reversing dwell times built in, which reflect the NR Timetable Planning allowances and are related to the length of the train (ie how long it takes for the driver to move to the other end), but with the following caveats:-

1) if the train is a next/new working rather than a train reversing, those timing may not apply (I think); a TT rule can be used to enforce a minimum dwell time;

2) freight trains - not running round - canwill take much longer to reverse than expected, due to the length related times above. In real life most are only booked at 2 minutes, the standard time for a driver to switch loco ends when propelling before or after the reverse;

3) with the new loader simulations there is the facility in the TT editor to set bespoke dwell times as required for reverses and other stops, and splits/joins etc.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
Last edited: 15/07/2013 at 22:03 by AndyG
Reason: typo, grammar, spelling
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Time Spent at Station Questions 16/07/2013 at 09:17 #47208
moonraker
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353 posts 		In my experience as a driver I can tell you it's not as simple as just changing ends and off you go again if things are running late. Drivers will often have a PNB somewhere near the middle of a typical turn and if it's a long one (9 hours plus) then there may well be 2 shorter breaks. So if a driver comes in with a late running train and is then due a PNB he will first take that PNB (As required now by law) even it means the next working will be late leaving. Although of course Control will often shift things around to alleviate long delays. Also consider that usually there is a given turnaround time in most diagrams that will allow for things like cleaning the train and putting reservations on seats etc.
Last edited: 16/07/2013 at 09:26 by moonraker
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Time Spent at Station Questions 16/07/2013 at 11:01 #47215
maxand
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1637 posts 		PNB = Personal Needs Break

Added to Glossary

How I love acronyms.
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Time Spent at Station Questions 16/07/2013 at 12:36 #47219
outofsection
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149 posts 		When my parents moved into the nursing home in Acocks Green I started using the Chiltern service from Princes Risborough quite regularly and the homeward bound train I got after visiting them was nearly always the 14:12 or 15:12 from Snow Hill. Before the line speed upgrade this train would arrive at Snow Hill about XX:50-53 of the hour before the planned departure time - and nearly always on platform 2! There was usually s driver change, and around 15-20 minutes max. station dwell time was allowed for. Nowadays the northbound train arrives at Snow Hill very often around 25-30 minutes before departure time.

Oh, and through trains to/from B'ham that stop at Risborough are as plentiful now as hen's teeth during the week - like 2 each way per day - and at ridiculous times of the day to boot! Much more frequent at weekends though! This is what Chiltern call "improving the service..."

...Not!
Last edited: 16/07/2013 at 12:37 by outofsection
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Time Spent at Station Questions 16/07/2013 at 12:50 #47221
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		Turnarounds can be very quick if the driver taking over the train for the next working is already waiting at the country-end of the platform nearish to the cab - and also if the platform staff are on the ball and ready to give TRTS pretty damn quick too. This is exactly what I noticed happening once quite recently in one of the suburban platforms (probably 10 or 11) at King's Cross when, to First Capital Connect's credit, they turned around a train (a Class 313 to form a 2Vxx) within probably no more than 3 minutes, if that!
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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Time Spent at Station Questions 16/07/2013 at 13:00 #47222
AndyG
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1835 posts 		" said:
PNB = Personal Needs Break

Added to Glossary

How I love acronyms.

Might need to add TLA to the list.....(TLA=Three Letter Acronym :doh )
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Time Spent at Station Questions 16/07/2013 at 13:43 #47223
John
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884 posts 		" said:
Turnarounds can be very quick if the driver taking over the train for the next working is already waiting at the country-end of the platform
It also helps if it's the drivers last trip...
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Time Spent at Station Questions 16/07/2013 at 18:11 #47238
DriverCurran
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683 posts
Online 		I don't know what you mean John :whistle:

Also even if the driver is quick at getting to the other end of the train, he will still have his PBT to carry out if required followed by setting up the on board IDU and PIS before he can even think of leaving.

Paul
You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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Time Spent at Station Questions 17/07/2013 at 19:59 #47287
Signalhunter
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177 posts 		" said:
I don't know what you mean John :whistle:

Also even if the driver is quick at getting to the other end of the train, he will still have his PBT to carry out if required followed by setting up the on board IDU and PIS before he can even think of leaving.

Paul
Not forgetting to carry out a RBT, once he has got set off.
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Time Spent at Station Questions 17/07/2013 at 20:01 #47288
headshot119
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4869 posts 		" said:
I don't know what you mean John :whistle:

Also even if the driver is quick at getting to the other end of the train, he will still have his PBT to carry out if required followed by setting up the on board IDU and PIS before he can even think of leaving.

Paul
And of course the time taken to turn the DRA off!
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Time Spent at Station Questions 17/07/2013 at 20:12 #47289
GeoffM
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6287 posts 		TLAs can be OTT sometimes.

Anyway, station dwell times can be determined by TOC too. Some of the long haul operators have defined turnaround periods which vary according to what work needs to be provided. For example, if the inbound service is late, they want a quick turnaround and the train isn't too trashed, they can do a rubbish pick-up, toilet inspection, restock the buffet, do seat reservations if necessary and back out in 15 minutes. But a full service with quick vacuum and proper cleaning will take 25 minutes. There was another level of service for, I think, Virgin but I forget the detail.

At least with the Loader sims, fixed minimum dwell times can now be specified per train or train type. However, with the late services and variable service levels mentioned above, that really needs a good multiplay host to inform the signaller - more tricky with solo play.
SimSig Boss
Last edited: 17/07/2013 at 20:13 by GeoffM
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Time Spent at Station Questions 18/07/2013 at 01:14 #47295
maxand
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1637 posts 		You guys are fantastic. Can a driver include a PIS in his PNB?
Last edited: 18/07/2013 at 01:15 by maxand
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Time Spent at Station Questions 18/07/2013 at 08:55 #47308
kbarber
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1712 posts 		" said:
You guys are fantastic. Can a driver include a PIS in his PNB? :)

Why would he want a passenger information system while he's having his cuppa? :dry:

This reminds me that, in the latter days of BR, there were innumerable computer systems all of which had names formed of acronyms. Some were a little bit tortured (PEARLS for instance, Personnel <something> <something> Records Local System). I have it on good authority that the developers spent an awful lot of time thinking these up, often as much for their own amusement as anything. PEARLS later acquired a companion system for administering the recruitment process (and which eventually became a "front end" for entering new staff on the system). It was known as PERVACS and the developer told me this was what they settled for when PERVERTS was finally vetoed by (very) higher authority! (No, I never did know what that would've been an acronym for! )
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Time Spent at Station Questions 18/07/2013 at 09:16 #47309
ralphjwchadkirk
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275 posts 		We have two computer systems called FRED and FREDA. Much like a married couple, they often refuse to talk to each other for a few hours!
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Time Spent at Station Questions 18/07/2013 at 10:51 #47314
onlydjw
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456 posts 		Did the A in FREDA stand for advanced? Kind of fits with some perceptions...
God bless, Daniel Wilson
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Time Spent at Station Questions 18/07/2013 at 11:09 #47317
AndyG
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1835 posts 		" said:
You guys are fantastic. Can a driver include a PIS in his PNB? :)
Within LT Buses, their equivalent to PNB at the end of a route was called P&T, which does have the merit of being self-explanatory.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Time Spent at Station Questions 19/07/2013 at 21:33 #47387
daverail01
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32 posts 		Those of us who have been around the railways for a year or six might remember Organising for Quality, which became O-for-Q Which quickly disappeared. Say it fast and realise why
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Time Spent at Station Questions 22/07/2013 at 11:26 #47474
kbarber
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1712 posts 		" said:
Those of us who have been around the railways for a year or six might remember Organising for Quality, which became O-for-Q Which quickly disappeared. Say it fast and realise why :laugh:

That wasn't quite how I experienced it.

Initially it became known as OfQ, in the time-honoured manner.

Then some computer-illiterate realised what the average railwayman would do with it and decided to rebrand it. The name they chose? O4Q!!! (I wonder if this was the one you came across Daverail?)

Finally it was decreed it should only ever be referred to as OQ (on pain of death or disembowellment or whatever punishment was specially reserved for anyone laughing at the BRB).

But most of us (managers included) had only ever called it OfQ and that was how we continued until it was implemented and we all took our redundancy money and ran
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