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| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 08:20 #47994 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
DSeaWall's thread on Adding Sounds got me thinking. There is satisfaction in receiving auditory confirmation that setting a route has been (a) commenced; (b) completed. Without it, we only have our eyes. Many times have I clicked just off the mark, or in the wrong place; easy to do if rushed. In addition to the sounds that can be used for messages, there should be provision for adding a sound file such as a muted click when a routesetting is commenced or completed. I don't think this is possible in SimSig right now. The completion sound could be set to play either when the route has been validated or after the route has been fully set. Last edited: 06/08/2013 at 08:22 by maxand Log in to reply The following user said thank you: GW43125 |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 09:50 #48004 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2030 posts |
I do not think it is possible in SimSig, and it certainly does not happen in real life. You can see what is going on by observing the panel indications - the entry cursor flashes after the first click and the route lights up white after the second - assuming you have tried to set a valid route. Log in to reply |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 09:57 #48005 | |
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Phil-jmw
674 posts |
It is the signalman's responsibility to 'observe' that signals and points have corresponded to the lever/button/switch/cursor operation. Audible confirmation is therefore not required and is certainly not authentic.
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| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 10:08 #48007 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
In a mechanical box you might get a faint click from a signal repeater as it hits its stop. But you should be looking at it, not listening to it.
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| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 10:13 #48009 | |
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John
884 posts |
Simsig doesn't come with a mechanical arm to prod me when I'm not paying attention... Any chance this could be added on the next core code update? Thanks!  :silly: 
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| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 11:23 #48011 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:In a mechanical box you might get a faint click from a signal repeater as it hits its stop. But you should be looking at it, not listening to it.Good luck hearing that if you're doing anything else, though! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ralphjwchadkirk |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 13:55 #48018 | |
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TimTamToe
656 posts |
" said:Simsig doesn't come with a mechanical arm to prod me when I'm not paying attention...I thought it was being developed with a dual functionality - left arm for a gentle prod and right arm with an air horn for when left arm has failed :whistle: Log in to reply |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 14:23 #48021 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thank you for your helpful feedback. It could of course be argued that IECC design itself is too primitive to allow these niceties. Just ask yourselves which you prefer, a keyboard with tactile feedback (which includes slight sounds) or a completely non-feedback keyboard? Someone recently suggested a short delay between setting a route and the corresponding signal flashing, just as in real life IECC. SimSig does not support this, so can't really be that authentic. Maybe I should have added that I was thinking of the old NX panels which SimSig tries to replicate. Now there's an example of tactile feedback. Maybe auditory feedback could be built into ground frame movements. Log in to reply |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 15:58 #48025 | |
Steamer
3929 posts |
" said:It could of course be argued that IECC design itself is too primitive to allow these niceties.I think you're confusing 'advanced' with 'lots of flashing lights, sounds and sleek interface', as opposed to actually doing a job properly. IECCs are designed to ensure absolute safety, 100% of the time without fail. Personally, I don't think 'advanced' commercial programs could claim that. (Example: in anther topic, someone mentioned that safety-critical relays cost £200. You can pick up a bog-standard one for a few quid in an electronics shop). Quote: Just ask yourselves which you prefer, a keyboard with tactile feedback (which includes slight sounds) or a completely non-feedback keyboard?Depends. I don't mind the genuine clicking sound of physical keyboards, but the artificial sound on touch devices drives me insane. Quote: Someone recently suggested a short delay between setting a route and the corresponding signal flashing, just as in real life IECC. SimSig does not support this, so can't really be that authentic.There's a big difference between not yet supporting something and including things that don't exist. To pre-empt the question "What about F2", it can be justified because it allows movements and instrutoins to be made that in real life are handled verbally, and it can be used to correct errors that almost certainly wouldn't happen in real life (e.g. a loco that's running round a train not stopping behind the signal it's reversing at. Oh, and there is of course the obvious answer to the problem: Slow down and make sure you've clicked the right place! "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 15:58 #48026 | |
GeoffM
6293 posts 
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" said:Someone recently suggested a short delay between setting a route and the corresponding signal flashing, just as in real life IECC. SimSig does not support this, so can't really be that authentic.Clicking an entrance signal and the entrance cursor flashing is instant on IECCs/Westcads/MCSs as that is done locally. Setting a route sends a request off to the interlocking and waiting for the response. This latter is actually in the core code but was disabled due to unpopularity. However, you can replicate this by setting up a server/client - even on the same PC - and then the delays are more realistic when using the client end. " said: Maybe I should have added that I was thinking of the old NX panels which SimSig tries to replicate. Now there's an example of tactile feedback. Maybe auditory feedback could be built into ground frame movements.As others have said, you are supposed to check the route setting as a signaller. What about if the signal doesn't show a proceed aspect - should that be alarmed too? And when should that be alarmed, since many routes are approach controlled? And before anybody asks, ARS does check that a route request it issued gets actioned. It will try 3 times at intervals of 5-15 seconds (random, to prevent repeatedly clashing) and then raise an alarm if the route failed to set. It does not monitor routes set by the signaller. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: JamesN, maxand |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 17:55 #48032 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
Maxand, could you imagine the cacophony in a real VDU based* signalbox if every route being set caused an alarm noise? Could you then imagine trying to conduct a safety critical phone call in that environment? For the most part panel or VDU based signalboxes are fairly quiet places, with just the odd chirping or occasional alarm to disrupt the low hum of quiet conversation. I know you're based in Australia but I think it would really help you to visit a VDU based signalbox in the UK if you ever get the chance, if only to see why the SimSig software behaves the way it does. It would answer so many of your questions before you'd even thought of them! *in case you're wondering, I'm deliberately using this clunky phrase throughout because IECC is a particular brand of proprietary technology. Other VDU based signalling solutions are available... Log in to reply |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 18:00 #48035 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
Anyway, if you set or cancel a route using the keyboard on a real IECC you get a text confirmation of this through the alarms display. I also seem to remember that on MCS screens the words "Route Setting in Progress" appear when you've set a route using the trackerball. Perhaps that's something which could be looked into if you feel confirmation is required?
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| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 20:50 #48053 | |
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georgerb
36 posts |
Given the comment that it does not happen in real life, I say that we leave the sound as it is currently.
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| Auditory confirmation of route setting 06/08/2013 at 23:16 #48058 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Firstly, I agree that no change is required. Just for the interest of the thread I though I'd mention that certain routes in Wimbledon ASC do chirp when set. I can't recall the exact details as I've never taken too much interest when I've been working there but I believe it's the inter-divisional routes that chirp. Basically Panel 1 controls the Main lines and panel 2 control the Windsor lines. There are several places that trains can route from Windsors to Mains or vica verca and I believe whenever a route is set to the inter divisional point a chirp is heard. There are quite enough buzzers and sounders in the average signalling centre without introducing anymore. It has always been the responsibility of the signaller to check the indications to ensure that the system has reacted correctly. On an NX panel you can sometimes push the button and it will fail to register as an entrance for various reasons. The signaller should check to see if the entrance button is flashing in the same way that you must check the entrance signal stem is flashing on a VDU based system. On lever frames you still need to check your indications to ensure the lever operated its device correctly. I've certainly known of a train ending up on the wrong line when a set of points failed to move, the signaller didn't check the points for Reverse indication and then authorised the train to pass the signal at danger. A signaller must check their panel, diagram or VDU, it's a vital part of their job. Quote: Someone recently suggested a short delay between setting a route and the corresponding signal flashing, just as in real life IECC. SimSig does not support this, so can't really be that authentiRelay interlockings are incredibly fast to react, it's only the electronic interlockings that are slow FF Log in to reply |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 07/08/2013 at 05:12 #48061 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
Hardwired Scottish Region Geographical (i.e. not via TDM/FDM to a remote interlocking) in particular is like lightning, route setting is near instantaneous. Of course no IECCs use ScR Geographical.
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| Auditory confirmation of route setting 07/08/2013 at 08:52 #48062 | |
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Steamer
3929 posts |
" said:Relay interlockings are incredibly fast to react, it's only the electronic interlockings that are slowIs it the actual interlocking that's slow, or the communication between the box and the interlocking? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 07/08/2013 at 10:01 #48063 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
On topic. The only sounds that we get from the panels at the ASC where I work are, Emergency Alarm, Barrier Failed/Power Alarm, Aircraft Trip Wire Alarm, Points Normalisation Alarm and TRTS on the older 8 panels. On the more modern stand alone panel we get, Emergency Alarm, Critical Alarm, Non Critical Alarm and Barrier Failed/Power Alarm. Generic to all the panels at our location for the TD is an annunciator tone for train entering the ASC/stand alone panel area and a Non Description Alarm (NDA). Then there are two different Rings for the Touch Screen Telephones, two different tones for incoming CSR calls and two soon to become there different tones on the GSMR. The only time our signalling equipment makes a sound is when it draws the signallers attention for something that may need an urgent response. Having tones going off across 9 panels when routes were being set would drive us totally nuts and we wouldn't stand a chance of hearing the really important ones. Off topic. Our TDM/FDM based free wire and geographic locking is fast when setting routes, in fact too fast at times when you've suffered fat fingers syndrome, (oops sorry driver can I drop you aspect down). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Temple Meads |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 07/08/2013 at 11:04 #48066 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:Firefly wrote:In the main it's the actual interlocking that's slow, although the panel multiplexer will also add a small amount of delay into the system. As hooverman notes RRI interlockings that are miles away from the control centre and linked by TDM system are still very fast. The TDM system does introduce a very small amount of lag compared to an interlocking which is under the floor of the control centre, however it's barely noticeable. Electronic interlockings are normally housed underneath the control centres so distance is not a factor in how slow they are to react to commands. FF Edit to say: Relay Interlockings that are now being controlled by VDU's do have more delay than panels due to the additional processing required Last edited: 07/08/2013 at 11:09 by Firefly Log in to reply |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 07/08/2013 at 11:35 #48067 | |
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Steamer
3929 posts |
" said:Quote:Are electronic interlockings computers that have been programmed with interlocking data, or a bespoke circuit that uses silicon-based components instead of relays?Firefly wrote:In the main it's the actual interlocking that's slow, although the panel multiplexer will also add a small amount of delay into the system. As hooverman notes RRI interlockings that are miles away from the control centre and linked by TDM system are still very fast. The TDM system does introduce a very small amount of lag compared to an interlocking which is under the floor of the control centre, however it's barely noticeable. Electronic interlockings are normally housed underneath the control centres so distance is not a factor in how slow they are to react to commands. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Auditory confirmation of route setting 07/08/2013 at 12:27 #48068 | |
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clive
2739 posts |
They're a computer running a standard program and then given data to describe the interlocking. There's a small amount of bespoke logic, but for the most part it's standard parts (memory says the original SSI ran on 68000s).
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| Auditory confirmation of route setting 13/08/2013 at 10:46 #48278 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
" said:Thank you for your helpful feedback. Sorry to bump this - been on hols. As a signalman I would always watch what was happening as I worked a box. That often meant looking sideways out of the window as I worked a lever. But if it was a signal out of sight I'd have an eye on the repeater above (usually) the lever. (Often mechanical points didn't have any indication so the only way to tell is when the next lever you try to pull only comes partway before meeting resistance. Some facing points did have an indicator but that only operated when you pulled the Facing Point Lock - again, sudden unexpected resistance as you pulled the FPL was the first indication the points weren't fully home.) Watching signals/indications was second nature - so much so that once I knew a frame I rarely looked at the levers themselves - I came to know where each one was so I'd invariably take hold of the right one without needing to look. When I worked a panel I'd always watch the entrance button as I pushed it. But sometimes I beat myself to it - I'd hit the exit before my mind had time to tell me the entrance wasn't flashing! Solution - pull up the exit & start again, only takes a moment. This sort of thing was easy to do at Hackney Downs, where Clapton Junction was worked by a rather old (slow and sometimes very temperamental) 'Westronic' TDM (indeed I believe the techs who installed it around 1960 used to call it the 'catastronic'). There were never any sounds from the panel itself. At Hackney, anything affecting Clapton was completely silent. But there was often a cascade of relay clicks from beneath when the local interlocking was being operated, very occasional at Hackney and continuous at Barking. At Euston the relay room was on the same floor as the panel and the clicks were louder; there were also more of them for any given route so pressing a couple of buttons provoked a fearsome clatter & chatter from behind the door. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |