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Good Quality Sims But.....

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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 09:57 #48321
pavittl
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The quality of the sims that SIMSIG produce is of a very high standard but I fear that we are going along the lines of charging for all new sims.
Do you think you might introduce a loyalty programme for people that are buying all these sims. For instance the £5 Fenchurch could have been waived for all those people that have purchased Scotland and Marylebone... (Like I have)
Like I said this is NOT a moan its just a "nice too" request from a happy SimSig user.

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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 11:07 #48323
mfloyd
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I personally believe £5 is very reasonable for Fenchurch St. The problem is that we have all been used to having them FOC. I dont blame Geoff for charging at all
Ripley, Derbyshire
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 11:13 #48324
rodney30
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i for one am happy to pay for Sims released by SimSig. as long as they are reasonably priced but i think that why shouldn't the developers get some money for spending hours, weeks, months or even years developing these fantastic Sims for our enjoyment.

keep up the good work SimSig and all the developers.

rodney30

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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 11:14 #48325
John
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884 posts
Me too. We've all been onto a bloody good thing for quite a while now, but now it's time to start coughing-up.
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 11:14 #48326
58050
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I suspect that is true what 'mfloyd' says we have all been used to getting these sims free of charge over the years. Personally I don't mind paying for sims as the quality is as good as you are ever going to get & the rnjoyment I get playing them out-weighs the cost by a long way. I'd be happy to £20 for a sim.
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 11:27 #48328
moonraker
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Compare the recent releases that are "Pay For" or "donation" Sims from SimSig to those provided by some of the other Signalling Sim producers and I think you'll find that they are excellent value for money. One in particular charges 3 times nearly what some of the SimSig recent releases have cost (Scottish Sims in particular) for just one sim.
Last edited: 14/08/2013 at 11:28 by moonraker
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 12:43 #48331
clive
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" said:
The quality of the sims that SIMSIG produce is of a very high standard but I fear that we are going along the lines of charging for all new sims.
I have a major new sim in the works. When released, it will be free (though I'll happily accept donations). I have plans to refresh Cambridge, Peterborough, Drain, and WembleySub. Those refreshes will be free. This is at least the third time I have made these statements.

Quote:

Do you think you might introduce a loyalty programme for people that are buying all these sims. For instance the £5 Fenchurch could have been waived for all those people that have purchased Scotland and Marylebone.
Apart from the technical problem of doing it, in this case you're talking about three different developers. Who gets to not receive their money (remember that at least part of your payment goes to the original developer)? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not simple either.

A single developer could run such a loyalty programme. You could view the bundled price for the MacSims as being something like that.

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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 15:51 #48342
pavittl
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I say thanks to clive for getting back to me and for being POSITIVE!!!!
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 15:54 #48343
Splodge
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I recall paying £35 (IIRC) for Stafford back in the day - £20 for somewhere like Marylebone or Edinburgh seems excellent value now!
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 16:33 #48346
headshot119
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" said:
" said:
The quality of the sims that SIMSIG produce is of a very high standard but I fear that we are going along the lines of charging for all new sims.
I have a major new sim in the works. When released, it will be free (though I'll happily accept donations). I have plans to refresh Cambridge, Peterborough, Drain, and WembleySub. Those refreshes will be free. This is at least the third time I have made these statements.

Quote:

Do you think you might introduce a loyalty programme for people that are buying all these sims. For instance the £5 Fenchurch could have been waived for all those people that have purchased Scotland and Marylebone.
Apart from the technical problem of doing it, in this case you're talking about three different developers. Who gets to not receive their money (remember that at least part of your payment goes to the original developer)? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not simple either.

A single developer could run such a loyalty programme. You could view the bundled price for the MacSims as being something like that.
Just to add to this, I have two sims in development, neither of which will be charged for on release.

I don't begrudge paying for sims, and I think Clive charging £5 for Fenchurch Street is extremely reasonable.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
Last edited: 14/08/2013 at 16:37 by headshot119
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 17:29 #48349
GeoffM
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Just to add to what others have said:


" said:
The quality of the sims that SIMSIG produce is of a very high standard
Thank you.


" said:
Do you think you might introduce a loyalty programme for people that are buying all these sims.
Peter did exactly that for the Scottish sims - people that had previously donated got the sims for free. We also had a deep discount for several weeks after the release. Even now there is a smaller discount if buying all four Scottish sims together.

SimSig Boss
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 17:32 #48350
Javelin395
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I don't begrudge people wishing to receive payment for their efforts. Trouble is, as others have said, we have had it too good for too long so people are going to grumble. Furthermore, as soon as you charge for a product I suspect peoples' expectation immediately increases. For example, the recent issues with regards the license manager and SimSig loader might be viewed as unacceptable when paying for a product.

I totally accept that Geoff has always acted to rectify such issues as soon as possible but, as I have said before it does make me think twice about spending what little spare cash I have. Messing about with the PC registry doesn't sound like something I should be doing as a non-techie so I'm going to keep my cash in my pocket for the time being.

Fair do to those developers that intend to continue down the donationware avenue.

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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 18:04 #48357
headshot119
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" said:
I don't begrudge people wishing to receive payment for their efforts. Trouble is, as others have said, we have had it too good for too long so people are going to grumble. Furthermore, as soon as you charge for a product I suspect peoples' expectation immediately increases. For example, the recent issues with regards the license manager and SimSig loader might be viewed as unacceptable when paying for a product.

I totally accept that Geoff has always acted to rectify such issues as soon as possible but, as I have said before it does make me think twice about spending what little spare cash I have. Messing about with the PC registry doesn't sound like something I should be doing as a non-techie so I'm going to keep my cash in my pocket for the time being.

Fair do to those developers that intend to continue down the donationware avenue.
I don't believe there is a need to do anything in the registry to allow the loader to work?

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 18:14 #48359
jc92
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" said:
Messing about with the PC registry doesn't sound like something I should be doing as a non-techie so I'm going to keep my cash in my pocket for the time being.
I'm terrible with stuff like that, but I've never had any issues with registry settings and have had to make no modification whatsoever for loader/payware (there is a difference between the two) to work. I'm sure if you took the plunge and were unable to get the sims working, a refund could be arranged and your licence simply revoked which would reduce any financial risk to yourself?

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 18:23 #48362
sloppyjag
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I can only recall one issue which some users resolved by changing registry entries. Users on certain versions of Windows (Vista and 7 I think) were unable to assign folders to the Loader unless they were located in the C drive. This was fixed in the updated version. So no fiddling with the registry required.
Planotransitophobic!
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 18:40 #48363
GeoffM
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Correct, if you wanted the simulations installed on your system drive (usually Cthen there was absolutely no need to change the registry. I guess none of my testers had the simulations on a different drive so didn't spot the limitation (which depended on the OS, oddly). And yes, it's already been fixed and re-released.
SimSig Boss
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 19:25 #48369
Javelin395
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Thanks to everyone who has responded re my comments about the loader and messing around with my registry.

I'm so non-technical where PC's are concerned that as soon as I saw the odd report of possible issues I was spooked. I am running Windows 7 which, from what I understood, was one of the affected OS. Hence I adopted my usual approach - if I don't understand then I don't touch (I use my PC to run my own business so I can't afford ANY risk of corrupting things).

As I've said on other threads, things worked fine as they were from my point of view as an end user. Geoff has since explained why some of the changes have been made but I feel SimSig has started to become a bit less user friendly IMHO. Starting to remind me of the almost impenetrable way BVE is set up.

I freely admit that I'd not seen the fix or even fully understood the nature of any problems.

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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 19:32 #48371
Ray
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Can someone clear up a small point. Which sims are compatible with the new launcher ? At the moment I have Marylebone and Fenchurch which can be launched from it but I seem to recall Brighton and Lancing were also possible.
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 19:43 #48372
Foulounoux
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I haven't purchased any of the pay sims but that's more to do with time than any deliberate decision. In the free days I'd download a sim (and donate) and play when I have time, if I'm making he conscious decision to pay then I need to be sure I'm actually going to make use if it.

However I would like to draw the following analogy if you will bear with me.

We are lucky enough to be the owners of a Morgan car. When we purchased it the top price for a Morgan was 40k

Since then Morgan have developed a range of cars aero , super sports etc. however they come with a price tag in excess of 150k in some cases

Morgan are now experiencing a high level of customer issues caused by the new market saying oi I've paid a high performance price and expect a high performance product

Whereas in the old days those of us who bought Morgan's expected a level of shal we say user interface or quirks

I see the same with the paid for sims Users are expecting to get their money's worth so my only caution would be no problem with charging but expect the level of complaints to rise. Don't take it as any indication that quality has got worse, if anything the opposite just the market expectation is different

As I said no criticism of the decision to charge just an observation of some of the consequences


Colin

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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 20:50 #48376
Javelin395
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Colin,

You've rather nicely summed up what I was originally trying to say but in a far more eloquent way than I ever could. Thanks.

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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 20:58 #48377
Steamer
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" said:
Can someone clear up a small point. Which sims are compatible with the new launcher ? At the moment I have Marylebone and Fenchurch which can be launched from it but I seem to recall Brighton and Lancing were also possible.
The following simulations use the launcher (£=payware):

Liverpool Street
Marylebone (£)
Lancing
Brighton
Fenchurch (£)

Javelin395 said:

I'm so non-technical where PC's are concerned that as soon as I saw the odd report of possible issues I was spooked. I am running Windows 7 which, from what I understood, was one of the affected OS. Hence I adopted my usual approach - if I don't understand then I don't touch (I use my PC to run my own business so I can't afford ANY risk of corrupting things).

As I've said on other threads, things worked fine as they were from my point of view as an end user. Geoff has since explained why some of the changes have been made but I feel SimSig has started to become a bit less user friendly IMHO. Starting to remind me of the almost impenetrable way BVE is set up.
I just let everything install where it wanted to be installed and it worked first time with no issues. The only difference is that instead of clicking an icon to launch (for example) Brighton, you click on an icon to open the Loader, and select 'Brighton' from the list of simulations.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 22:07 #48379
Roadrunner
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Charging for sims will lead to a decline in SimSig's prospects in the long-term.

Relatively few people will pay for and download the new sims. As there are few people that have the new sims, you won't be able to get a multi-play going using one of them. Also, as writing timetables is such a laborious process, there is no incentive to produce timetables for the paid-for sims as so few people will have or use them. So, if you buy one of the paid-for sims, you are buying a product with an extremely short shelf life!

SimSig does everything in secret. (Clive's post above is an exception.) Because there is no news about what they are doing or when, there is no reason to look at the website. That means that most people will not know that such-and-such sim has appeared suddenly, out-of-the-blue. Because free-sims are becoming few-and-far-between, there is even less incentive to check the site.

Instead of SimSig being a thriving community of hobbyists, it is little more than a collection of developers and their friends with a few hardy outsiders living in the dark. That is why the whole active SimSig membership fits into a pub in Derby (even after 10 years of activity!)

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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 22:43 #48381
jc92
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" said:
Charging for sims will lead to a decline in SimSig's prospects in the long-term.

Relatively few people will pay for and download the new sims. As there are few people that have the new sims, you won't be able to get a multi-play going using one of them. Also, as writing timetables is such a laborious process, there is no incentive to produce timetables for the paid-for sims as so few people will have or use them. So, if you buy one of the paid-for sims, you are buying a product with an extremely short shelf life!

SimSig does everything in secret. (Clive's post above is an exception.) Because there is no news about what they are doing or when, there is no reason to look at the website. That means that most people will not know that such-and-such sim has appeared suddenly, out-of-the-blue. Because free-sims are becoming few-and-far-between, there is even less incentive to check the site.

Instead of SimSig being a thriving community of hobbyists, it is little more than a collection of developers and their friends with a few hardy outsiders living in the dark. That is why the whole active SimSig membership fits into a pub in Derby (even after 10 years of activity!)
to save yourself the laborious process of typing out these posts, can i suggest copy and pasting it into a notepad and saving it, because its always exactly the same thing!

how is what you've described any different from any other software/game development company really, and specifically similar products such as PC rail which has an active following despite it all being payware, and all sims being released out of the blue?

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 22:56 #48382
Sam Tugwell
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Wow Roadrunner, kinda feels like deja vu!
"Signalman Exeter"
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Good Quality Sims But..... 14/08/2013 at 23:41 #48384
kbarber
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" said:
Charging for sims will lead to a decline in SimSig's prospects in the long-term.

I really ought to ignore this kind of thing. But I guess most of you know me by now... here goes...

" said:
Relatively few people will pay for and download the new sims. As there are few people that have the new sims, you won't be able to get a multi-play going using one of them. Also, as writing timetables is such a laborious process, there is no incentive to produce timetables for the paid-for sims as so few people will have or use them. So, if you buy one of the paid-for sims, you are buying a product with an extremely short shelf life!

The activity on the forum proves - very satisfactorily in my opinion - that this is quite wrong. (I was going to say something stronger, but there's guidelines...) There's been no shortage of people buying sims; none at all. If the number of people requesting licence help is anything to go by, the pay sims have been a stunning success. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but not everybody has had problems have they? So the number of licence requests is a fraction of the number of actual purchases.) I seem to recall seeing plenty of multiplayers as well. Opinion is one thing, but facts are pretty inarguable and these are facts!

" said:
SimSig does everything in secret. (Clive's post above is an exception.) Because there is no news about what they are doing or when, there is no reason to look at the website. That means that most people will not know that such-and-such sim has appeared suddenly, out-of-the-blue. Because free-sims are becoming few-and-far-between, there is even less incentive to check the site.

This is probably the most inaccurate and insulting thng you've said.

There is a world of difference between 'secret' and choosing what to say and what to not say. Aaron: I don't know if you've been around to see the endless "when will it be ready" posts? When they clog up the site, that really does reduce the incentive to check what's going on, as the real information is buried in endless pages of nonsense. Needles... haystacks... I can only bear so much of that before I lose the will to live and just switch off. And I don't think I'm alone.

Part of the inevitable response to the endless "when will it be ready" threads was to point out that everybody who works on these sims does it in their spare time and that - all-too-often - life gets in the way. I think you need to take note of that. However much the developers want to get their sims out quickly (and all those I've ever spoken to do want their sims in use, not in development), the realities get in the way and there really is no help for it. What is it that stops you understanding that?

Also, you ignore just what it really takes to get a sim out. Let's be clear: I'm not a developer (I'm not even a timetable tester). But I have some experience of trying to get together the kind of information that's needed to write a sim. Do you have any idea how much data is needed before the first keystroke is actually committed? Let alone the vast effort needed to assemble it from various sources - some official, some unofficial (but they still need to be legitimate) and some by means of personal observation (perhaps over a period of weeks or months). I don't know (and developers tend to be busy people so I'm not sure if anyone will correct me) but I suspect coding the sim is probably the quickest and easiest part of the process. Then comes testing and debugging. Which, again, is done by people in their spare time trying to fit it around the rest of life. It's no small commitment: I know for a fact that one tester (no names... you know who you are) sometimes spends sixty hours a week testing sims and timetables. That's twelve hour days, five days a week. On top of being active on the forum (I've no idea whether they also play sims for pleasure). This is a professional product being produced by amateurs: amateurs in the literal meaning of the word - people doing it for the love of it. Because the prices being charged (for some, not all, sims remember) certainly aren't enough to pay anyone anything useful. In fact, I doubt if the income would even cover the out-of-pocket costs of researching the sims at the level of take-up even the most successful sims generate.

" said:
Instead of SimSig being a thriving community of hobbyists, it is little more than a collection of developers and their friends with a few hardy outsiders living in the dark. That is why the whole active SimSig membership fits into a pub in Derby (even after 10 years of activity!)

I really don't know where to start with the misconceptions here.

What makes you think the 'active SimSig membership' is identical with those who attend meets? (How do you define active membership anyway?) What makes you think attendance at meets says anything at all about anybody? Given that our active membership (in terms of forum posters) is worldwide, attending a meet is impossible, in practical terms, for many many 'active members'. Unless I'm sadly misinformed, we have quite a number of young people (as statutorily defined for child/vulnerable adult protection purposes) among the 'active members'; unless suitable arrangements can be made they really shouldn't be eligible to attend meets at all. What about those who work for the railway (quite a few of them too), who are as likely as not at work when the meet happens? Those who have other commitments (I reckon I get to about 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 meets for that reason)? Those for whom travel is difficult or impracticable for a whole raft of reasons? And those who, simply, can't afford it? (Far too many with the economy in its present state.)

I don't know what's eating you, Aaron. But I think you need to take a bit of a reality check. You haven't been banned, you haven't even had your posts deleted or redacted (which might be more than I can say once the mods get to this). If telling you a few home truths counts as shouting you down, I think you need to take a long, hard look at yourself.

I think I've said enough. Let others continue if needs be.

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