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| Alternatives and Seeds 06/11/2013 at 21:47 #50850 | |
Danny252
1461 posts |
As is pretty standard, I'm using a single train as a source for the weekday - 5T60 seeds as one of 5 versions, one for each weekday, and 5T60-1 is linked with 5T60-2...5T60-5 via the "X and Y are Alternatives" rule. This itself works fine. However, funny things happen if I try and get other seeds to only appear when a certain weekday train appears - things have ranged from the other trains reversing the rules and forcing only specific weekdays to appear (or none at all!), to the trains seemingly ignoring the rules (I'm currently looking at 5T60-4 and 5H54-3, and the rule "5H54-3 must not appear if 5T60-4 appears" is highlighted as having been triggered!). So, what (if any) is the way to handle choosing a weekday train, and only creating specific seeds from it? Do I need to invoke the old 50/33/25/20% chance method? How do I force my weekday choosing trains to be "first" in the rule, with the rest only being seeded after? Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 06/11/2013 at 21:58 #50851 | |
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AndyG
1834 posts |
Try using "5H54-3 must not appear if 5T60-4 RUNS" rather than "5H54-3 must not appear if 5T60-4 appears", and/or "5H54-3 must ENTER 0 mins after 5T60-4 enters the area". Not sure whether it makes a difference, but hey, try something. :doh I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 06/11/2013 at 21:59 #50853 | |
postal
5190 posts |
" said:As is pretty standard, I'm using a single train as a source for the weekday - 5T60 seeds as one of 5 versions, one for each weekday, and 5T60-1 is linked with 5T60-2...5T60-5 via the "X and Y are Alternatives" rule. This itself works fine.I've done a bit of playing to try and solve the same conundrum and I can't find the answer. For some reason the seeding for a specific day only seems to work on a single TD with 5 clones (i.e it doesn't seem to work if you have 1A00MO, 2B00TO, 3C00WO etc). If you then have a dated train that needs to be in sim on a specific day (or days) when the sim starts you have to go back to the old way of entering the train at the best available entry point, adjusting the entry time to suit and setting up the rules so that it will enter 0 mins after the relevant seed if it runs on one day of the week or must not run if such-and-such a seed runs for the other cases. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 06/11/2013 at 22:00 #50854 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:Try using "5H54-3 must not appear if 5T60-4 RUNS" rather than "5H54-3 must not appear if 5T60-4 appears", and/or "5H54-3 must ENTER 0 mins after 5T60-4 enters the area".Unless things have changed in the last couple of iterations of the loader, that doesn't work. In regard to the "must enter 0 mins after", that only works for a train entering on one day of the week. If you set up 2 rules that a train must enter 0 mins after the TO and THO seeds the train never enters. It is waiting for both rules to be satisfied which obviously will never happen. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 06/11/2013 at 22:02 by postal Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 06/11/2013 at 22:21 #50861 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:" said:The rule doesn't work for seeds even if you use individual day trains for everything - possibly as a seed doesn't have an "entry time". That is, with the rule "5H54-2 must appear 0 minutes after 5T60-2 enters the area" (which appears as greyed and active), and the rule "5H54-3 ... 5T60-3" (black and inactive), I'm still getting 5H54-3 appearing when 5T60-2 spawns and v.v.Try using "5H54-3 must not appear if 5T60-4 RUNS" rather than "5H54-3 must not appear if 5T60-4 appears", and/or "5H54-3 must ENTER 0 mins after 5T60-4 enters the area".Unless things have changed in the last couple of iterations of the loader, that doesn't work. In regard to the "must enter 0 mins after", that only works for a train entering on one day of the week. If you set up 2 rules that a train must enter 0 mins after the TO and THO seeds the train never enters. It is waiting for both rules to be satisfied which obviously will never happen. Last edited: 06/11/2013 at 22:22 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 06/11/2013 at 23:54 #50877 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:The rule doesn't work for seeds even if you use individual day trains for everything - possibly as a seed doesn't have an "entry time". That is, with the rule "5H54-2 must appear 0 minutes after 5T60-2 enters the area" (which appears as greyed and active), and the rule "5H54-3 ... 5T60-3" (black and inactive), I'm still getting 5H54-3 appearing when 5T60-2 spawns and v.v.Danny That's the point I was trying to make in my post at 21:58. At the current time, there doesn't seem to be any way to link any seeds beyond the 5 cloned trains. Any dated trains due to be in sim at start time outwith those 5 clones cannot be seeded. You have to find an entry point and then apply a rule, Sorry if my post a minute later clouded the waters. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 07/11/2013 at 00:00 by postal Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 07/11/2013 at 07:39 #50896 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
Have you tried the "mutually exclusive" option. http://www.SimSig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=usertrack:ttuse:ttrules:mutexc You can put as many trains in the list (Separated by a comma) and only one will ever appear. Also don't forget that 4 out of the 5 must have the run as required option ticked and a relevant % (I'd suggest approx. 20% personally, but it's up to you). Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 07/11/2013 at 09:53 #50903 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:Have you tried the "mutually exclusive" option. http://www.SimSig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=usertrack:ttuse:ttrules:mutexcNoel Don't think it does what Danny is asking. I think the problem is about aligning dated trains that need to be seeded to the day-of-the-week seed that enters. For example you may have some MO trains which need to seed as they are in sim at start time. After you have set up the 5 clones to give the day-of-the-week seeds any combination of rules I have tried to link the MO trains to only seeding when the MO day-of-the-week seed runs lead to various incorrect results like the MO seed never running, some of the MO trains entering on other days of the week or MX trains entering on Monday. With the MutEx rule, all you are doing is making sure that (for example) only one MO train runs. If it is not the day-of-the-week seed, then you are forcing a day-of-the-week seed from another day to run and so have an MO train seeding on a day which is not Monday. If the seed trains are checked in random order by the core code, then I can't see a way to resolve the problem. If there is a hierarchy (e.g. the seeds could be checked in alphanumeric order) then it would be possible to create the 5 day-of-the-week clones at the head of that alphanumeric hierarchy (so as something like 0A00-1, 0A00-2 etc); any subsequent seeds that had rules applied would already have the day-of-the-week seed to reference and then enter or not accordingly but I haven't managed to find any hierarchy as yet. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 07/11/2013 at 09:59 by postal Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 07/11/2013 at 14:30 #50931 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
The very simplest way to put the question is "How do you force a Seeded train to (not) appear, depending on whether another Seeded train is present?". The "normal" methods seem to either be ignored, or the trains read the rule backwards (the rule becomes "Master if Slave", rather than "Slave if Master"  - seemingly due either to trains being created in the wrong order (Slave is created before Master) or seeded trains behaving differently from entering ones.
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| Alternatives and Seeds 21/12/2013 at 10:48 #53040 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:The very simplest way to put the question is "How do you force a Seeded train to (not) appear, depending on whether another Seeded train is present?".The new release of the Loader (v4.0.19 which is available using the "Check for Updates" button) now allows the capability to seed by day of the week. I have established that the following procedure works by trial and error so there may be easier or quicker ways to do it, but this makes things happen as desired. 1. Set up the day-of-the-week seeds using a single group of TDs e.g. 0A00MON, 0A00TUE etc rather than 0A00, 1A01,2A02 etc.). The seeds must also have the same number of characters (so 0A00MO, 0A00TO . . . . 0A00THO would not work). The code appears to read the TDs of seed trains in alphanumeric order so 0A00 is read before 0B00 or 1A00. The day-of-the-week seeds must be read before any seed trains which are ruled to be dependent on them so if you require to seed 1A00 only on Monday, the day-of-the-week seeds must be earlier than 1A00 in an alphanumeric list. If you are not sure whether you have got the alphanumeric listing right, go into the TT and look at the list of trains sorted by Identity. 2. Set up a rule that "0A00??? are alternatives". The ? is a wild-card character so you need one ? for each of the differentiated characters in the TD. The "are alternatives" rule treats all trains in the list equally so you do not need the 20/25/33/50%ages checked. 3. Seed the other trains at the appropriate locations and add rules that they must not run if such-and-such a seed train runs (or for trains entering only on 1 day of the week rule that they must enter 0 mins after the relevant day-of-the-week seed enters). 4. Save the TT, re-start the sim and hopefully everything will appear (or not) as expected. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 21/12/2013 at 10:57 by postal Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 27/12/2013 at 18:41 #53284 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
Now I've got a spare minute, I will explain what the different rules involved do. There are four kinds of rules that are involved. (1) "1A2? are mutually exclusive" or "1A2? and 1B4? are mutually exclusive" (the former has a blank as the second train ID). The two train IDs can contain question marks as wildcards, so "1A2?" matches all of 1A20, 1A21, 1A22, 1A2X, but not 1A299. If train T matches either ID and another train that matches either ID has already entered, then train T is cancelled. Note that this rule is symmetric, so "2C66 and 2D77 are mutually exclusive" will only allow the first one of 2C66 and 2D77 to enter and will cancel the second. This rule does *NOT* apply to trains being seeded. (2) "1A23 must not run if 1B45 runs". The train IDs can *not* contain question marks. When 1A23 is about to enter, the core code checks to see if 1B45 has already entered and, if it has, cancels 1A23. Note that this is *not* symmetric, so if 1A23 enters first, 1B45 can still run - it would be better phrased as "1A23 must not run if 1B45 has already entered". This rule does *NOT* apply to trains being seeded. (3) Rules like "5X55 must appear N minutes after ...". These rules will delay a train from entering until the relevant condition has been met, but do not cause a train to be cancelled. They also don't affect seeded trains. (4) "1A2? are alternatives" or "1B2? and 1C45 are alternatives" (in the first case the second train is blank, in the second case it isn't). Again, either ID can use ? as a wildcard. These rules affect both trains about to enter (after the first three kinds of rules have been checked) *AND* trains about to be seeded. The process for these is a bit more complicated. The core code builds up a list of certain trains that haven't yet entered or been cancelled. For each train, the code first checks to see if the train matches the first ID of each rule; if it does, it's added to the list. If it matches more than one such rule, it gets added more than once. (So if there are rules "1A2? are alternatives" and "1A?3 are alternatives", then 1A23 will be added to the list twice.) If the train doesn't match any first ID, but does match the second ID of any rule, it is added to the list once, no matter how many second IDs it matches. When this list has been built, a train is chosen at random from it - that train will enter or be seeded, and *ALL* the other trains on the list will be cancelled. If a train is on the list twice, it therefore has twice the chance of being chosen, and so on. So if you have trains 1A23-M, 1A23-T, 1A23-W, 1A23-H, 1A23-F, 1A23-S, 1A23-U (for Monday to Sunday), then you can have exactly one chosen at random by having a rule "1A23-? are alternatives". If you want weekends to occur twice as often as weekdays, you can add two more rules "1A23-S are alternatives" and "1A23-U are alternatives". I hope this is clear. If not, feel free to ask questions, though I don't know when I'll be able to answer them. Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 27/12/2013 at 18:49 #53285 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:This is just luck. It isn't guaranteed. Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 27/12/2013 at 20:26 #53299 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:" said:If it is chance, any idea of the probablities? The reason I ask is that I must have loaded day-of-the-week TTs on Carlisle (mainly), a test TT on an as yet unreleased sim and West Hampstead getting on for 100 times since 4.0.19 was released and I haven't yet noticed any cases of seed trains not entering when due or seed trains not due actually entering when ruled back to a day-of-the-week seed which is higher in the alphanumeric list of seeds.This is just luck. It isn't guaranteed. It may well be that I have not noticed something untoward, but it seems pretty solid so far. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 27/12/2013 at 20:26 by postal Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 27/12/2013 at 21:15 #53301 | |
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Jan
889 posts |
I'd guess that Clive meant it in the sense that it's an implementation detail which might change without notice in a future core code release.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 27/12/2013 at 22:33 #53303 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:I'd guess that Clive meant it in the sense that it's an implementation detail which might change without notice in a future core code release.Exactly. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
| Alternatives and Seeds 28/12/2013 at 13:20 #53324 | |
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woodruff
204 posts |
Would it not be easier, for timetable writers and users, to simply have seven boxes on the train editor , one for each day of the week? Then you simply tick the day of the week that the train runs, with a separate option in the main timetable editor to select the day of the week that you wish to run the timetable for? Then have the sim code read through the timetable and select only the trains to run that have been selected? Seems easier that writing rules etc that get more complicated every time I read them! Ps simple it sounds but?? Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 28/12/2013 at 15:46 #53333 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
Or just create 7 separate TTs? As this is all chance, then it is possible that you could end up with 3 of the same Day in 3 successive play-throughs.
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| Alternatives and Seeds 28/12/2013 at 22:49 #53352 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:Would it not be easier, for timetable writers and users, to simply have seven boxes on the train editor , one for each day of the week?Day of the week isn't the only possibility. For example, you might want to do a summer timetable that has conditional trains that only run in certain months (remember wavy lines down the GBTT?). Or something else. The existing mechanisms let you do lots of different things, not just one particular case. Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 29/12/2013 at 14:54 #53370 | |
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woodruff
204 posts |
Hmmm so when do we get an editor that can do all this....or is it just to much of a task to write code etc? What is involved in changing the editor we have? Can it be done or is it a whole new editor that would be required?
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| Alternatives and Seeds 30/12/2013 at 11:12 #53418 | |
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Underwood
746 posts |
Got a confusing situation, how does one rule out 3 different trains and two different trains with different headcodes on Saltley Sim? 1. I have a 6M50 and 6X50 that both booked to appear at Nuneaton Abbey Jn at the same time. 6M50 is a normal engineers train but will run as 6X50 if it has Point Carriers in the consist, so I have 6M50 set to run as normal with no percentage check, and 6X50 I have set as 40%. Obviously in this case 6X50 will not run if 6M50 runs. As one or the other might be late, to avoid them both appearing I tried the mutually exclusive rule. I have it set to 6M50 and 6X50 are mutually exclusive. After 3 quick tests, 6M50 appeared fine with no duplicate, but on the 4th test, 6M50 appeared followed by an appearance of 6X50 which was on block behind 6M50. They both appeared when only one or the other should run, what am I doing wrong? 2. The second one I am unsure of what to apply is I have 3 0Z47's, 0Z47-1 0Z47-2 and 0Z47-3. They appear at 3 different locations at 3 different entry times, but is one Class 47 so can only appear once. All are set to 35%. So for point (4) in Clive's rules guide, the 0Z47-? are alternatives rule would apply, but I can't fine that rule in the sim, I'm assuming that only works for Loader simulations? In that case what would apply for Saltley? Any help is much appreciated. Thank you though Clive for taking the time to write out a detailed explanation of the rules 
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| Alternatives and Seeds 30/12/2013 at 17:27 #53444 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:I tried the mutually exclusive rule.The MutEx rule didn't work properly in some earlier versions of the core code so it may be that Saltley is built on one of those versions. You can probably get round it by having 2 rules that 6M50 must not run if 6X50 runs and vice versa. Quote: The second one I am unsure of what to apply is I have 3 0Z47's, 0Z47-1 0Z47-2 and 0Z47-3. They appear at 3 different locations at 3 different entry times, but is one Class 47 so can only appear once. All are set to 35%. So for point (4) in Clive's rules guide, the 0Z47-? are alternatives rule would apply, but I can't fine that rule in the sim, I'm assuming that only works for Loader simulations? In that case what would apply for Saltley? It looks like that rule was not available for the core code at the time so you will probably need 6 rules:
The 35% probability on each train will mean that there are some days when none of the three enter. As they are not entering at the same time (and assuming that they are timed to enter in the order 0Z47-1/0Z47-2/0Z47-3 and that you want an even split in the number of times each enters over a succession of runs through the TT) then you need to set the percentages up differently. If you want a 1 in 3 chance that 0Z47-1 will enter set the percentage for that train to 33%. If that does not enter you then have the choice between 0Z47-2 and 0Z47-3. As it is now a 50/50 choice, set the percentage for 0Z47-2 to 50%. If 0Z47-2 does not enter and you want to ensure that one of the three enters, then you must want 0Z47-3 to enter so do not set a percentage for 0Z47-3. This is ever so slightly skewed by a quirk of the probabilities when there is a delay to one of the trains entering but the effect is so small that it won't make any noticeable difference when you are running the TT. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 30/12/2013 at 22:32 #53467 | |
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Underwood
746 posts |
This is set on a Monday, and those 0Z47's are MO STP moves, hence only 35% as it's the same loco but set on times when it ran once or twice. It's set in late 2013, hence a slightly higher percentage as it's based on a few months. I'll see if the rules work but they don't seem to work for 6M50 at the moment. I set the rules as you say, 6M50 must not run if 6X50 runs and vice versa, but after 15 tests 6M50 appears. I wanted 6X50 to have a higher chance so I tried 60%, but still only 6M50 appears. I set 6X50 to 99% to see if it will actually run, but after 5 times 6M50 only appears. I know it's only 5 test's, but surely at 99% it would run probably through 4 of those tests? With that I started to wonder if having a double rule blocks out 6X50 entirely? I could leave it as one, but as we know, timetable bug reports will start coming in with people having two trains on the map as 6M50 is delayed or something. It's possibly the only thing I can do at the moment? Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 31/12/2013 at 06:47 #53476 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
I’ve never written a timetable, but: what if you reduced the probability of 6M50? You say they’re timetabled to enter at the same time, so I guess the sim is seeing 6M50 first, deciding whether to enter it or not, and then, if not, deciding whether to enter 6X50 afterwards (probably in that order due to alphabetical sorting, but I can’t say for sure). So, if you want 6X50 to enter sometimes, make P(6M50) less than 100%. Mathematically, the probability that 6M50 will enter is P(6M50), and the probability that 6X50 will enter is P(6X50|~6M50)×(1-P(6M50)), with the probability that neither will enter being (1-P(6M50))×(1-P(6X50|~6M50)). What we see here is conditional probabilities: the percentage you enter for 6X50 is actually P(6X50|~6M50), that is, the conditional probability that 6X50 enters given that 6M50 has not entered. So, if you want a 75% probability that the train as a whole will enter, with a 33% chance that a given entry is 6X50 (and a corresponding 67% chance that it’s 6M50), then we have: P(6M50) = 0.75 × 0.67 = 0.5025 (probability that a train enters and is 6M50; enter 50.25 as the percentage for 6M50) (1-P(6M50))×P(6X50|~6M50) = 0.75 × 0.33 = 0.2475 (probability that a train enters and is 6X50) Solving for P(6X50|~6M50): P(6X50|~6M50) = 0.2475 ÷ (1-P(6M50)) = 0.2475 ÷ (1-0.5025) = 0.4975 (probability that 6X50 enters given that 6M50 did not; enter 49.75 as the percentage for 6X50). Verifying that this works: 50.25% of the time, 6M60 will enter. (100%-50.25%)=49.75% of the time, 6M60 will not enter. Out of those 49.75% of instances where 6M60 does not enter, 49.75% of the time 6X50 will enter. So overall, 49.75%²=25.75% of the time, 6X50 will enter. The remaining 100-50.25-25.75=24% of the time nothing will enter. So, 100-24=76% of the time, one or the other will enter, which is exactly what we want. Given that, out of the 76 entries, 50.25 (or 66% of 76) will be 6M50 and the other 25.75 (or 34% of 76) will be 6X50, exactly as desired. Of course, all this is entirely wrong if the effect that’s causing the problem is not, in fact, the effect I described—namely, checking one train, enforcing the rule, then, if the rule permits, checking the other train! Last edited: 31/12/2013 at 06:49 by Hawk777 Reason: Last line Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 31/12/2013 at 10:37 #53479 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:This is set on a Monday, and those 0Z47's are MO STP moves, hence only 35% as it's the same loco but set on times when it ran once or twice. It's set in late 2013, hence a slightly higher percentage as it's based on a few months. I'll see if the rules work but they don't seem to work for 6M50 at the moment.What percentage is 6M50 set to? If you apply the same reasoning as I showed for the 0Z47 set, then the first train in the list will be 6M50. If 6M50 is set up without a percentage, it will always enter provided it is not late and so behind the entry time of 6X50. If you want a 60:40 split then you need to set 6M50 to 60% and no percentage set for 6X50. You need to step back a bit and get your head round how the rules and percentages work before you start putting numbers into the TT. As currently configured the core code will read the trains in alphabetical order. So you have to start from how often you want the first train in the list to enter. Once you have got that sorted, you then look at the circumstances of the next train in the list. If you have three trains and want to give them an equal chance of entry (and always having one enter) the first train needs a 33% chance of entry. The circumstances have then changed for the second train, because if the code has got as far as reading the probability for the second train we know that the first train has not entered. That means that the second train is one of two that have an equal chance of entering so it needs a 50% probability. If the code gets as far as the third train then we know that trains one and two have not entered so train three must enter i.e. it needs no probability. This moves us on to your 3-train set up. Are you actually saying that the light engine only runs 35% of the time but may then appear as one of three variants. If that is the case then you need to adjust the 33/50/100% figures to 12%, 14% and 16% respectively. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Alternatives and Seeds 31/12/2013 at 19:49 #53506 | |
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Underwood
746 posts |
The odd's for the 0Z47 are supposed to be sort of medium, not infrequent but not too high either. I've added all 6 rules and did the usual test (re-start a load of games at the entry time) and am happy with the results in the frequency they appear :) As for 6M50, I get it now, and it does work with both rules in, 6M50 has a percentage checked and 6X50 doesn't, and appears generally 1 in every 6 or so games roughly, which is perfect. Thank you guys for your detailed responses, much appreciated, now the rules work I I want it to work, thank's again! James. Log in to reply |