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| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 24/11/2013 at 21:19 #51964 | |
Roadrunner
111 posts |
I would like to praise the non-loader edition of King's Cross as the near "perfect" sim and I encourage all of you to copy the installer to a safe place on your computer. The railways are steeped in history and many preservation societies exist to keep the old systems going. With this in mind I would like to ask the SimSig team to consider restoring this older version to the download area. It is quite normal to have older versions of software available to those that want them or need them for whatever reason. I suggest this because, although the new loader sim has a nice new layout in the modern era, other changes have also been made which everyone will have an opinion about. So, keep the old version alive is what I say. We know the 2.201 version so well, including all its timetables. Another reason to keep it alive is that many of us have saved files (.ssg) which are not compatible with the new loader version. To run the saved files we need the 2.201 version (or a program to convert from the old format to the new.) Well, it would be a lot less work simply to keep the old 2.201 version alive. I would be interested to hear other people's comments about the old version of KX that many have played over recent years. Hopefully, the old version can return and the users can have the best of both worlds. Log in to reply |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 24/11/2013 at 23:50 #51975 | |
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Underwood
746 posts |
I could tell who posted this from the title... Is this necessary though? I have re-written my 2012 TT for the new layout, as not only does the old one have missing track, the update means the appropriate trains no longer have to use 'KX Goods' for Platform 0, and the new timing locations are added in too, something that was missing from the old one (Belle Isle for example). Yes I've lost the save, I'll just start again that's all, no issue for me. Quite happy with the new one, I have the old one but once I've manually transferred everything from my original 2012 TT, I'll probably delete it. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: CTCThiago, ajax103, John |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 25/11/2013 at 02:38 #51977 | |
GeoffM
6282 posts |
" said:We know the 2.201 version so well, including all its timetables....which are all fully compatible with the new version. " said: Another reason to keep it alive is that many of us have saved files (.ssg) which are not compatible with the new loader version. To run the saved files we need the 2.201 version (or a program to convert from the old format to the new.)Granted, they are not compatible. To "convert" is like trying to convert a fried egg into a chicken - a fair chunk of what is required simply isn't there to convert from. " said: Well, it would be a lot less work simply to keep the old 2.201 version alive.I know you've been told many reasons why this isn't generally a good idea. However, I will see about retaining it somewhere. " said: other changes have also been made which everyone will have an opinion aboutLet's hear what you liked in the old version which you don't like in the new. Please number each point so they can be transferred to the issue tracking software if people generally feel they're a good idea. Open discussion. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Stephen Fulcher, CTCThiago |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 25/11/2013 at 05:57 #51978 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2025 posts |
I am surprised you bother to play SimSig at all - observations on the forum suggest all you do is complain about it. By the token of your argument, I will be asking Microsoft to never update from MS-DOS and Windows 3.1 combination, as they are clearly better than Windows 8. Similarly, I shall petition my employer to go back to Time Interval working on the grounds that computer based interlockings are clearly inferior. Nobody else has complained about the updates to Kings Cross. There may have been a couple of bugs reported, but that is about all. As the timetables seem to work with some very minor alterations which may, or may not need to be made (and in any case would only have to be made once not every time you play a game), and saved games are largely irrelevant as you can always start again, there seems to be little worth complaining about. My suspicion is that you are turning every minor change made with the software into an excuse to provoke an argument. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: CTCThiago, Forest Pines, John |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 25/11/2013 at 09:40 #51980 | |
postal
5190 posts |
I must be missing the point. I thought that a valid point for discussion was raised. To my mind, it would be helpful if the issues could be explored so that we could establish whether some sort of archiving of older versions would be a sensible use of the time and resources available to SimSig. As far as I can see, the gist of the original message is that it would be nice to retain a version of the .exe KX sim so that those so minded can reload old games, run with old TTs etc. There is nothing there about not having the .sim version for those that want it, there is nothing I can see about forcing anyone to use the .exe rather than the .sim version, there is nothing that I can see that is argumentative or controversial and there is nothing that I can see that is rude or confrontational. So, addressing the original point, I don't see anything against maintaining a publicly-available archive of older versions of the donationware provided that can be achieved within the server space available and provided that someone has the time to administer it. However, there is a separate issue with the paidware sims. When a sim is upgraded or re-released, how would that be handled? Would the older version become donationware or would it still be chargeable (and in parallel, would the re-release be chargeable for those who already have the older version or would it be a free upgrade)? Would a licence for the current sim allow the older version to run or would a separate licence be required? There will be lots of further questions as well, but let's not kill the debate by shooting the messenger. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: northroad |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 25/11/2013 at 12:07 #51986 | |
northroad
870 posts |
Must admit that I think there maybe a valid request here if it can be accommodated. Of all the Sims both old and new I do like Kings Cross the best and now with the updated version it caters for old and new timetables. But one point I am slightly confused about ( probably an age thing) is do the already written timetables work with the new loader version of Kings Cross or do they all need tweeking of some shape or form to get them working as they originally did. My impression of the posts so far is that they do....all be it minor tweeks..... Geoff Last edited: 25/11/2013 at 12:08 by northroad Reason: Spelling Log in to reply |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 25/11/2013 at 13:51 #51989 | |
onlydjw
456 posts |
It seems that the original thought was that many of the newly released sims would not require timetables to be modified, but it seems that in reality, most do require some minor (or less minor?) amendments. Perhaps the default TTs may not require amending, but some user submitted ones, particularly those which use some of the "less conventional" locations and paths, do require amendments. I know from personal experience that although all seems well at first, in some TTs you find some trains never appear, because the errors in their TTs need fixing first. It would be worth running a timetable analysis on the TT you want to use, and fixing the issues and warnings which come up. Ideally, it would be good to take the list of available TTs, and have noted next to them which do work correctly, and which require amendments for the loader sims. In practice, some of the original TT writers may not like others updating "their" TTs for them, so this whole area starts becoming political again. God bless, Daniel Wilson Log in to reply |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 25/11/2013 at 14:47 #51992 | |
Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
That's exactly why I urge people to include the version number in the upload -and in deed occasionally reject ones that don't. Also some kind soul has done a table at the head of each manual of all the TTs available with dates and versions etc. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 25/11/2013 at 16:11 #51996 | |
CTCThiago
232 posts |
" said:I would like to praise the non-loader edition of King's Cross as the near "perfect" sim and I encourage all of you to copy the installer to a safe place on your computer.You can praise what you want, but this version 2.201 (.exe) is obsolete compared to the new system (.sim). We have 2 different eras with modifications, the new simplifier, the flyover at Hitchin and etc... Quote: The railways are steeped in history and many preservation societies exist to keep the old systems going. With this in mind I would like to ask the SimSig team to consider restoring this older version to the download area. It is quite normal to have older versions of software available to those that want them or need them for whatever reason.No need for the older (.exe) version, we already have it at Old Layout on the Loader format. Quote: I suggest this because, although the new loader sim has a nice new layout in the modern era, other changes have also been made which everyone will have an opinion about.Sure, The new loader is perfect. Quote: So, keep the old version alive is what I say. We know the 2.201 version so well, including all its timetables.Okay Boss? Wake up from the dream, you don't rule the world here. Quote: many of us have saved files (.ssg)Indeed. Quote: which are not compatible with the new loader version.Indeed. Quote: To run the saved files we need the 2.201 versionYou can play again. No need the 2.201 version. Quote: I would be interested to hear other people's comments about the old version of KX that many have played over recent years. Hopefully, the old version can return and the users can have the best of both worlds.My opinion... Stop doing that. Thiago. Log in to reply |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 01/12/2013 at 00:59 #52206 | |
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Roadrunner
111 posts |
I am simply requesting that the KingsX.exe (version 2.201) be retained in the download area because it works so well. It is after all, the most played sim of the SimSig collection. The new loader version has a great modern layout and will have its own advantages. But the exe version is most suited to the old layout and has been tried and tested. Also, it should be retained because the new loader version is not backward compatible. There is only a small price to pay (server overhead, data storage etc). I am not advocating keeping other versions as postal suggested. This King's Cross sim is the heart of SimSig multiplay, which I am sure will continue with the new loader version. Let us keep both - the best of both worlds.
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| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 01/12/2013 at 03:13 #52208 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:But the exe version is most suited to the old layoutHow? The old version is missing several ground frames and sets of sidings which are present in the loader version - e.g. the headshunt at Langley Stone Terminal, the frames at New Barnet and the Rowntrees siding at Alexandra Palace (Wood Green). The only thing that went "missing" is the headshunt for the Up Sidings at Welwyn, which I've never seen used in any timetable. Quote: Also, it should be retained because the new loader version is not backward compatible.So no sim should be updated, then? I'm unaware of any major update to a sim that retains save compatibility, whilst Geoff has pointed out that it IS backwards compatible with timetables. Quote: But the exe version [...] has been tried and testedSo, similarly to above, no sim should be updated (or new sims released), because it hasn't been released for as long? Quote: There is only a small price to pay (server overhead, data storage etc).Why keep it at all, if you don't keep the rest? Surely any new player downloading the sim will not be concerned with backwards compatibility - anyone who is concerned already has the sim. If anyone is concerned that their favourite timetable is not available on the new loader version, they can spend five minutes fixing it - I've spent plenty of time fixing timetables I've downloaded even when there hasn't been a sim update. Your entire argument seems to hinge on the fact that you want people to play the older version of Kings Cross with you, despite the majority of (if not all) players seeing no reason not to use the updated and more feature-filled loader version. Meanwhile, your bitter attitude towards the developers (and even the community at large) makes joining games that you host quite an undesirable option for myself at least (and, going by comments in the shout box and elsewhere, by several others). You seem to have latched onto the idea that any Simsig item released since payware sims were created is "untested" (implying they are broken/buggy?), that they impinge on your ability to play, or they are otherwise somehow inferior to what is already released. It sounds like you're perfectly happy with what you have downloaded already, and you have no desire to be informed of new updates or developments - which makes your continued visits to the forum (other than the hosting notices/timetable areas) somewhat confusing. I see no reason why Geoff et al. should continue hosting the files for your sake - it is of no benefit to them, nor have you given any convincing argument as to why KX specifically should be kept, other than "lots of people play it". Perhaps you could request that they allow you to host the .exe version installer on a site you host yourself (given that it would be only a "small price to pay" on your part), but I suspect that you've long since destroyed any good will that may have been present, and that they would have no inclination to agree to such a suggestion. (I also quite enjoy the grandoise "Preservation Society" title which you have bestowed upon yourself, but that doesn't really contribute to the main text of my post) Last edited: 01/12/2013 at 03:16 by Danny252 Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Forest Pines, CTCThiago |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 01/12/2013 at 10:44 #52211 | |
pedroathome
887 posts |
Just putting my opinion out there, the ONLY reason I can see for keeping the old versions of sims available (EXE files) is for chaining as from what I understand the new loader sims are not compatible with the older EXE sims. Please correct me if I am wrong here And sorry RoadRunner, but in my opinion you have not put across any good arguments for keeping the old versions of sims alive James Last edited: 01/12/2013 at 10:45 by pedroathome Log in to reply |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 01/12/2013 at 11:38 #52213 | |
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Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
" said:Just putting my opinion out there, the ONLY reason I can see for keeping the old versions of sims available (EXE files) is for chaining as from what I understand the new loader sims are not compatible with the older EXE sims. Please correct me if I am wrong hereThere is no intrinsic reason why and .exe and a .sim will not chain. There was a change to the way chaining worked a while back and any pair of Sims that were build on the different core-code MAY have a problem, specifically where the orientation is inverted. Without checking, I have a feeling that may well be the case with KX/CB/PB. I can see the case for he complete set of payware sims being retained as arguably the one available at the time of license purchase is the one that the licenses was purchased for albeit, usually, the license will be valid across iterations. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 01/12/2013 at 11:46 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 06/12/2013 at 13:25 #52471 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:I must be missing the point. I thought that a valid point for discussion was raised. To my mind, it would be helpful if the issues could be explored so that we could establish whether some sort of archiving of older versions would be a sensible use of the time and resources available to SimSig. As far as I can see, the gist of the original message is that it would be nice to retain a version of the .exe KX sim so that those so minded can reload old games, run with old TTs etc.I haven't seen a good explanation of all the issues. The only ones I've seen are: (1) Old timetables don't work. This appears to be an exaggeration - as I understand it, old timetables do generally work but may require small tweaks in *some* cases. Equally the same issue happens each time a sim is updated, whether it's EXE-EXE, EXE-SIM, or SIM-SIM. (2) You can't run old saved games. This is true, but again was true with EXE-EXE updates. It won't always be true with SIM-SIM updates: the loader will make its best attempt to restore the game, but differences in layout could lead to strange behaviours in some cases. But, in any case, how important is this? I tend to start games from new and only use saved games to allow me to take a break or to investigate problems. I don't keep going back and playing the same half-finished game. I don't understand why this case is so special while no previous EXE-EXE update was. (This is *not* a request for "roadrunner"-bashing, though I don't understand why he thinks this sim is so special.) Log in to reply |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 06/12/2013 at 13:57 #52472 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:" said:For the sake of clarity, I wasn't worrying about the TT issues or lack of backward compatibility. I was thinking of the issues around server space, administration, payware sims etc. as you can't consider this in the context of one sim but need to consider the whole range of sims and versions.I must be missing the point. I thought that a valid point for discussion was raised. To my mind, it would be helpful if the issues could be explored so that we could establish whether some sort of archiving of older versions would be a sensible use of the time and resources available to SimSig. As far as I can see, the gist of the original message is that it would be nice to retain a version of the .exe KX sim so that those so minded can reload old games, run with old TTs etc.I haven't seen a good explanation of all the issues. The only ones I've seen are: “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 06/12/2013 at 17:25 #52488 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
The new loader format will definately be a change for the better long term. When Carlisle was being tested any new .exe version resulted in all saved games being null and void which is a big problem when the timetable depends on previous actions. In short you have to start from midnight every time. With the new loader sim I'm working on I've been able to make minor changes and still load a saved game which is very useful. Log in to reply |
| KX version 2.201 (non-loader) Preservation Society 06/12/2013 at 18:54 #52491 | |
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Javelin395
270 posts |
As someone who was critical of the way in which the switch to loader sims was handled I have to say that I agree with TomOF when he says that it is a change for the better long term. Once Geoff had explained the reasons behind the switch I was more understanding of why the change was made. I finally made the switch to the loader when the new version of KX was released as this is my fav sim and I was keen to experience the new layout. Apart from the slow loading (which I believe people are looking into) I can't really say as the change has affected me as a front end user. Therefore I don't really see the need to archive older versions. In any case, the idea behind newer iterations of a sim must surely be to improve upon older versions and to iron out any bugs that may have been discovered. Last edited: 06/12/2013 at 19:00 by Javelin395 Log in to reply |