Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals

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Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals 31/12/2013 at 06:09 #53474
Firefly
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521 posts 		Quote:
I'll go to Macclesfield SB and find out which cats-eyes are cleared for the DM route. I know they are 'off' for detection purposes. Or, I may ask a driver.
Not really necessary, it's just a running shunt, very common all over the railway. (aka running dummies, preset shunts, facing dolly etc)

In order for the signaller to set a route to the down main he will need to pull 41 then 42. To Set to Platform 3 he will need to Pull, 37, 39, 41 & 44.

As has already been stated a driver is not allowed to pass that signal unless it's cleared, therefor 42, 43, 44 and 45 levers will all be interlocked with 41 and it will not be possible to pull any of them unless 41 lever is reversed.

As Late Turn has already said the purpose of 41 is to allow a train to shunt out of any platform towards 47 LOS, turn around and then start back into any of the platforms using 41 signal. (If 41 wasn't there trains would have to go beyond 42/44 to turn back, which would require the LOS to be moved behind 42/44 and 109 would have to become a controlled signal.)

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When I saw it 'off', I was in the front-cab of a Pendelino.

If it was ON the driver should of stopped at it, so it's a good job it was off.

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As for the BR, I am talking about the 2nd part of the forum title, as well.

The OP wasn't talking about 2 different things. The question was Banners in association with Sub Signals.

Just a point but 41 is not a Sub Signal, it's a Shunt Signal.

43/45 is a Sub Signal and as such you provided the perfect example for this thread because the box diagram clearly shows the 42/44 Banner does not apply to 43/45 signals.

Hope this makes it all clear and saves you a trip to Macclesfield Box
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Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals 31/12/2013 at 06:51 #53477
Late Turn
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696 posts
Online 		Indeed, I'd have been worried if you had found 41 'on' (the only way should be if the main signal and 41 had both been replaced, perhaps in an emergency) - not that the driver would stand much chance of not passing it!
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Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals 31/12/2013 at 21:20 #53507
vontrapp
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210 posts 		But I wanted to go to Macclesfield. Bah humbug. LOL
Last edited: 31/12/2013 at 21:29 by vontrapp
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Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals 31/12/2013 at 21:40 #53510
vontrapp
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210 posts 		As for the 1st question: A subsidiary-signal authorizes the driver to pass the main signal at red. How can a BR show that the subsidiary-signal is off? It can't.
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Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals 01/01/2014 at 02:10 #53519
bill_gensheet
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1318 posts 		The 'platform' version of banner repeater is referred to as a 'miniature banner repeater' and firmly distinguished from the normal type in some RGS documents (GKRT0037 p18/19) although not defined elsewhere.

As such these seem no more than an alternative form of 'OFF' indicator that must have been favoured at one time in the past and used for Paddington and Waterloo.
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Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals 01/01/2014 at 10:55 #53521
Firefly
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521 posts 		Quote:
As such these seem no more than an alternative form of 'OFF' indicator that must have been favoured at one time in the past and used for Paddington and Waterloo.
Taking Waterloo as the example the Banner Repeaters are there because a 4 car train at the buffer stops cannot see the platform starter signals. Waterloo Platforms have an off indicator near the buffers for guard / dispatcher purposes and 1 or 2 Banners along the platform for the driver in order to satisfy the requirements of GE/RT8037 (This standard superseded GK/RT0037 in 2004)

An Off Indicator only proves the signal controls are off but doesn't prove the signal alight, whereas a Banner Repeater signal proves the signal is alight as well as controls Off. (This distinction is made in the circuitry at Waterloo).

The only reason for using a miniature banner in these circumstances is that you do not require a full size Category 2 Signal (250m readability) since all trains are at a stand and therefore a Category 3 (100m readability) miniature Banner is sufficient.

The use of an Off indicator instead of a Banner is (non preferred) according to GE/RT8037 and I cannot imagine any recent resignalling scheme using an off indicator when a banner is required.
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Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals 02/01/2014 at 00:58 #53534
vontrapp
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210 posts 		An 'off' indicator is for the platform-staff. BR's are for drivers.
Last edited: 02/01/2014 at 01:00 by vontrapp
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Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals 02/01/2014 at 10:30 #53535
Steamer
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3923 posts 		" said:
An 'off' indicator is for the platform-staff. BR's are for drivers.
OFF indicators combined with RA indicators are for drivers- Manchester Piccadilly dispatches everything using RA, and I suspect that the platform starter is out of sight on some platforms for short trains.
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Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals 02/01/2014 at 11:33 #53536
Peter Bennet
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5362 posts 		" said:
" said:
An 'off' indicator is for the platform-staff. BR's are for drivers.
OFF indicators combined with RA indicators are for drivers- Manchester Piccadilly dispatches everything using RA, and I suspect that the platform starter is out of sight on some platforms for short trains.
Are you not muddling up several different things here?

Is it not the case that the signal comes off and the BR relays that to the driver (and anyone else that's interested) that it's now safe to depart. Once the signal and BR has come off the OFF indicator will light telling the dispatcher he can dispatch and the RA tells the driver the train can now depart.

Peter
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Last edited: 02/01/2014 at 11:35 by Peter Bennet
Reason: Grammar
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Banner repeaters and subsidiary signals 02/01/2014 at 13:36 #53537
jc92
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3630 posts 		correct. the BR or OFF indicator will relay to the platform supervisor and guard that the signal is displaying an aspect which allows the train to depart. the supervisor/guard can then plunge the RA button which illuminates the RA indicator for the driver.

I'm not sure what the purpose of these are for modern stock as most have internal buzzers, but they were used where the guard was typically out of sight of the driver to give a green flag for a loco hauled train (York for instance did have RA indicators for this reason.)

I've never seen a BR relate to a shunt aspect, but I've definetely seen an OFF indicator clear for a GPL. I wouldn't see much benefit to a BR repeating a shunt aspect, given the danger of a driver reading it incorrectly, and also the low speed a GPL should be approached at as part of the signalling design anyway, it wouldn't provide any benefit.

EDIT: just found this info on railsigns (I cannot guarantee the reliability of it):

http://www.railsigns.co.uk/sect22page1/sect22page1.html

"When a rear "Off" indicator refers to a signal that can display both main and subsidiary aspects, it may have associated with it an additional indication reading either "Main" [22.6] or "Sub" [22.7] as appropriate. Alternatively, the indicator may display just "Off" for a main aspect and "Sub" for a subsidiary aspect."

doesn't clarify banner repeaters but does clarify the difference for an OFF indicator
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Last edited: 02/01/2014 at 13:41 by jc92
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