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| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 31/01/2014 at 06:11 #54683 | |
Danny252
1461 posts |
I've discovered a minor oddity that occurs relating to cancelling and resetting routes when warners are involved. If you have a signal cleared for the normal overlap, cancel, and quickly (i.e. before the original overlap drops) re-stroke the signal for the warner route, the full overlap will not drop out, but the signal will act as if only the reduced overlap is available. A good example of this is Vic Central 704 (Streatham Hill Up) to 640 - the route takes quite a while to drop out, letting you restroke for the warner route quite easily. The behaviour happens on other sims too, though. I would claim this is a bug, but I'm curious as to whether it actually replicates the behaviour you would get from an interlocking - I can certainly see why re-stroking could cause problems with the route dropping sequence. I'm not so sure about the signal then not clearing fully, as this does occur when the full overlap becomes available by setting a route forward from the next signal - but perhaps the check is only triggered by that act of further routesetting. (If it is an "interlocking error", then I apologise to the S&T installation team for pointing it out!) Last edited: 31/01/2014 at 06:35 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 31/01/2014 at 08:24 #54688 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
Another probably unrelated but fun thing you can do is wait until a train is occupying the TC immediately in advance of a signal (so that the route is still set, before TORR fires on the deoccupying of that TC), cancel the route (not an ACOA because the train has passed the signal and it is red), and restroke the route. This sometimes yields some… odd… behaviour. I’m pretty sure this ended up setting a route with reduced overlap despite clicking on the main signal for exit point, but I can’t remember whether this ended up acting like a warner route or just never clearing at all. Or, I may have confused it with cancelling a platform starter signal with a train immediately in advance in order to set a route into the platform without the interlocking yelling at me about Huddersfield Control (since a route was technically set from the starter, albeit with a red signal and about to be dropped by TORR soon after). Whichever it was, I thought it was a good idea at the time, as it would let me set a route so I wouldn’t forget about it. Log in to reply |
| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 31/01/2014 at 11:09 #54695 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Or, I may have confused it with cancelling a platform starter signal with a train immediately in advance in order to set a route into the platform without the interlocking yelling at me about Huddersfield Control (since a route was technically set from the starter, albeit with a red signal and about to be dropped by TORR soon after).I've done that before, and was very surprised when the Calling On aspect lit up quite happily! Log in to reply |
| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 31/01/2014 at 12:55 #54705 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2025 posts 
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I'm not going to say it won't happen, because I have never tried to replicate this on a proper panel, but my understanding of reduced overlaps would suggest that it shouldn't happen as there is a separate route call for both classes of route which determines how far the route locking cascade should extend. This is certainly the case in Western Region E10k interlocking because the overlap track circuit route locking does not actually drop when the track circuit is acting as an overlap, but a timed release of the berth track of the signal will hold the points locked. Of interest, you also do not get route lights on the overlap normally either. Looking at the typical circuits for BR850 interlocking, I do not believe it should happen there either as the route locking in the overlap is "suppressed" by the main route not set. I do not have first hand experience of this type of interlocking though, so someone else may know differently. As for whether or not SSI would do it, I do not know, and cannot easily find out as it would all be done in data. Log in to reply |
| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 01/02/2014 at 07:56 #54763 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
Wait, you mean you managed to get a call-on aspect into an empty platform? Now that I come back to test things out, I can’t seem to reproduce any weird behaviour I suggested above. Perhaps it only happens in some sims, but I could have sworn I remembered a warner route turning into a normal route or vice versa somewhere in an unexpected way. Maybe I’m misremembering. Log in to reply |
| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 01/02/2014 at 16:02 #54789 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2025 posts
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Warner will turn into a "normal" route if you set the onward route, but should not step back down again in any circumstances. "Delayed Yellow" principles in Western Region E10k are allowed to step up and down as many times as they like, although if memory serves me correctly this is not simulated in SimSig. I know the delayed yellow route selection is simulated, for instance at Weston-super-Mare, but once the full overlap is available over the points they become locked, which is not entirely prototypical. E10k will allow call-on into an empty platform as well under certain circumstances. For instance, you are allowed, certainly in older installations, to call-on where the route out of the platform at the other end is set and showing a proceed aspect. The interlocking will select the appropriate type of aspect at the entry signal relative to the state of the track circuits in the platforms at the time the entry signal clears. However if the exit signal was showing a proceed and the train then departs after the entry signal had cleared for a call-on, the call-on aspect will remain even though the platform road is now clear. This is not allowed in new installations I do not believe. Log in to reply |
| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 01/02/2014 at 17:21 #54793 | |
GeoffM
6282 posts
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It's certainly theoretically possible to get this to happen with an SSI/Westlock/Smartlock. The FOP file, where subroutes and suboverlaps get released, would have to be written in a moderately inefficient way by checking for and releasing later subroutes/overlaps before earlier. Given the timings of the control system and the interlocking, it might be more difficult to replicate in a signalbox than in SimSig.
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| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 01/02/2014 at 17:44 #54794 | |
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GeoffM
6282 posts
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" said:Warner will turn into a "normal" route if you set the onward route, but should not step back down again in any circumstances.If an auto button is pressed while a warner route is set (with auto capabilities) then the interlocking remembers this. The route could step up to a main but when used it will step back down to a warner. This happens on numerous routes in Liverpool Street (SSI) and Victoria (GEC. There are also warner routes which step up to a main without setting a forward route, if conditions permit. This happens on Liverpool Street - set 84-74 and then 94-86, then cancel 84. Watch 94 step up to a main. It's unusual but I've double checked in the OPT file and it does indeed do this. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 01/02/2014 at 19:14 #54799 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
Isn’t this a violation of Huddersfield control, which prevents you from setting a route into a platform if the platform is occupied and a route out is set? Or do you mean this only works in older installations before Huddersfield control was applied?
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| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 01/02/2014 at 22:15 #54809 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2025 posts
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Correct on both counts.
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| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 01/02/2014 at 22:17 #54810 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:" said:Does this occur in Simsig? I've always thought that pressing the auto button for a warner route will cause the full route to become the one that is auto-set, but perhaps I've not paid enough attention.Warner will turn into a "normal" route if you set the onward route, but should not step back down again in any circumstances.If an auto button is pressed while a warner route is set (with auto capabilities) then the interlocking remembers this. The route could step up to a main but when used it will step back down to a warner. This happens on numerous routes in Liverpool Street (SSI) and Victoria (GEC). Log in to reply |
| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 01/02/2014 at 22:27 #54811 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2025 posts
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There are a couple of places it works this way - I think the route into Kemble was one, although it might not be on the new version 4.
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| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 01/02/2014 at 23:50 #54812 | |
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GeoffM
6282 posts
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" said:" said:Yes - Brighton is an example. On start-up, 431 to 435 is a warner route set and with the auto on. Set onward route into the station and it'll step up to a main. Allow a train to pass both routes and when the train is far enough beyond 435 you can see only the warner overlap is set (and 431 is held at R)." said:Does this occur in Simsig? I've always thought that pressing the auto button for a warner route will cause the full route to become the one that is auto-set, but perhaps I've not paid enough attention.Warner will turn into a "normal" route if you set the onward route, but should not step back down again in any circumstances.If an auto button is pressed while a warner route is set (with auto capabilities) then the interlocking remembers this. The route could step up to a main but when used it will step back down to a warner. This happens on numerous routes in Liverpool Street (SSI) and Victoria (GEC). Standard behaviour in SimSig if the warner and main routes are correctly associated in data, and both have auto allowed. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 02/02/2014 at 13:01 #54835 | |
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Jan
889 posts |
Or likewise 399 to 231 at West Hampstead South Jn, where the full overlap is extending across the crossover. As there are a number of trains crossing over from the Fast Line, the ability to put the warner route in auto mode was very useful.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| Catching out the Simsig interlocking with Warner routes? 02/02/2014 at 19:09 #54860 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
I'll make a note to go and test some, then!
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