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| Early running freight trains question 22/02/2014 at 22:47 #56043 | |
Pinza
106 posts |
I am a bit confused with letting freight trains run early. Clearly passenger trains shouldn't leave until advertised departure time. However, occasionally I spot the chance to let a freight train get away early and hope it makes it to next loop without delaying a passenger train. My query is this: Sometimes when I set a route early for a freight train, driver will take it. Other times the train just seems to wait for booked time. Accept that in real life the signaller won't know if driver is off his PNB or whatever. A good example of this is 7M49 0522 Millerhill to Carlisle in the new Motherwell sim: Train is booked to be looped at Summit, Beattock and Lockerbie. At each UPL there was not much activity, so routed via main line. In each case train seemed to want to wait till booked time. Not an issue till I got to Lockerbie - booked UPL 0838-0911. I routed it mainline and it seems not to want to move! Diverted a couple of up class 1's past it on the UPL - including one due to be platformed at Lockerbie! Guess passengers will need to be taxied back from Carlisle! Is there anyway of knowing in advance if a freight train will take my early clearance or wait till WTT time? Log in to reply |
| Early running freight trains question 22/02/2014 at 22:56 #56044 | |
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AndyG
1835 posts |
Just wait and see if it calls in, in which case you can route, or tell it to not to call in until due departure time, but you will know it will go if you set the route. Or sneak a peek at status on F2, will either be stopped or waiting right away. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 22/02/2014 at 23:04 #56045 | |
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Pinza
106 posts |
" said:Just wait and see if it calls in, in which case you can route, or tell it to not to call in until due departure time, but you will know it will go if you set the route.Thanks Andy, understand that. However, in the 7M49 example I gave, is there anyway of knowing in advance what the situation will be at Lockerbie? ie nothing much else around on the up lines in the area so routed it mainline rather via the loop. Now seems to be blocking main line till booked 0911. Or should I just route freight trains into booked loops and hope driver comes on phone early? Last edited: 22/02/2014 at 23:08 by Pinza Log in to reply |
| Early running freight trains question 22/02/2014 at 23:16 #56046 | |
Steamer
3929 posts |
" said:" said:You can edit the timetable (F2> right click train> Timetable Options> Edit timetable) and set it to a pass time, that way it won't stop.Just wait and see if it calls in, in which case you can route, or tell it to not to call in until due departure time, but you will know it will go if you set the route.Thanks Andy, understand that. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 22/02/2014 at 23:21 #56047 | |
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Pinza
106 posts |
Thanks Steamer - guess I need to do that in advance though and too late once I've blocked the WCML! Is there any reason why some freight trains are happy to leave early and others wait till booked time? Must a-bed, but will continue to explore this issue. Log in to reply |
| Early running freight trains question 22/02/2014 at 23:30 #56048 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
Once the train has stopped and doesn't want to move until booked time you can give it a gentle nudge by editing the timetable in F2 (see Steamer's post) and amend the "Set current/next location" to the next timing point in the timetable. The train should then start moving.
Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 22/02/2014 at 23:39 #56049 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
It is, as far as I'm aware, simulating the possibility of a train booked to call for relief - in which case, in reality, the train's unlikely to be ready to depart the relieving location much ahead of its booked time (and quite possibly for some time afterwards - one was delayed by nine hours, awaiting forward driver, today or yesterday!). Of course, in reality again, it's possible to establish in advance whether a train's booked for relief or not, and whether the relieving driver is ready and waiting. The limitations in Simsig seem to be that freight trains are liable to stop for relief at any location where the train's booked to call (even a reversing location as it prepares to set back into its destination yard!) rather than just at likely relieving locations, and that they do so on a random basis with no means of checking beforehand. I think it's been said before that it's something that's being worked on though! Landor Street, on the Saltley sim, is a good example of where it causes more problems that it might in reality. Quite a few trains are booked to take relief there, so it's not sensible to let anything arrive there early and out of path. If you did, you might receive the phone call to tell you that it's ready to depart early...but if not, you're stuffed, and it's too late to do anything about it. In reality, the box would probably check that the relieving driver was ready before letting an early-runner away from the last regulation location in rear, whereas in Simsig you can't really do anything other than hold it to time (possibly getting in the way!) at that location. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 00:10 #56050 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
Freight does run early on Network Rail.
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| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 00:39 #56053 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
Who said it didn't?
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| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 06:37 #56055 | |
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Airvan00
129 posts |
The manual gives a bit of help http://www.SimSig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=usertrack:ttuse:timing_codes As a guide there is a difference between a ":" and a "/" in the times e.g 00:16 or 00/16 Some older timetables may have been written before the current rules, so expect the unexpected. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 09:25 #56057 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
In the real world the WTT will show the reason why a freight train is stopping - 08C39 for a crew change or 08*39 if a train is looped to give way to another train. Maybe this should be moved to the Feature Requests thread!
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| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 10:14 #56060 | |
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MrBitsy
121 posts |
If you want to be real world then be nervous about running freight trains early. If at ANY point on its journey it is delayed for any reason, you as the signaller that ran it early will get all the delay! At West Hampstead, if an up freight does not pass Bedford by 6am, it can be held until after the peak.
TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Pinza, TimTamToe, John |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 10:34 #56062 | |
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TimTamToe
656 posts |
" said:" said:If you're wanting to run the freight early as you feel it is clear to do so; using your 7M49 example which loops at Lockerbie from 08:38 - 09:11, route it into the loop...If the train isn't going to stop for its full timetabled time, it will call you, where you can say "wait 2 min" etc or "wait till booked time". This way you still have the option of running it early but you also haven't blocked the mainline if it waits until its scheduled departure time.Just wait and see if it calls in, in which case you can route, or tell it to not to call in until due departure time, but you will know it will go if you set the route.Thanks Andy, understand that. Gareth Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 10:46 #56063 | |
58050
2650 posts |
The answer to the question about freights running early is also governed by what era you are talking about. I don't agree with those people saying freights on today's railway run early. With my experience of freight train running early & Network Rail is that it happens less & less today. This is a conversation I have at least once or twice every week from friends of mine who drive for Freightliner & DBS as well as an ex railway colleague I worked with who now works as Senior Train Running Controller for Network Rail at Birmingham & the tendency today is to keep freights in there booked path, mainly due to the '%' possibility of something going wrong & then causes delays to other TOCs services. The nature of the way penalties are paid by whoever is responsible for causing the delays. In BR days freight trains regularly ran early & there wasn't so much of the blame game when things went wrong like there is today. The way freight trains ran on the railway changed in 1994 with the introduction of Railtrack zones & if you wanted to run a freight train early or out of its booked path or as an ad-hoc move you had to fill out a VSTP(Very Short Term Planning) form. On this form you had to put the tonnage of the train or loco, maximum speed of the slowest vehicle in the consist, details of the consist with the RA(Route Availability) & at the bottom you had to fill out the requested route you wanted the train to run. You'd fax the form to the originating zone of control & then waited for a response which was the same form you originally filled out, but this time with a train ID allocated by the Railtrack lead zone & a reference number as there was a charge to pay. You had to allow the Railtrack zone at least 30 minutes to create the schedule & liaise with adjacent Railtrack zones to see if they could accommodate the train at that time. This was a huge learning curve for alot of people as prior to this it only took a phone call. Some zones however were quicker than others. I attended regular meetings at 125 House in Swindon where we discussed issues raised over the past 4 weeks regarding who was to pay what to who in respect of delays. I remember spelling it out to a group of train crew supervisors from Acton, Hither Green, Swindon, Didcot & Westbury that the days of just picking up the phone to request an early running freight train were over. Everyone had to accept the new way of working as Railtrack or Network Rail as it is today hold all the aces, because if you try & cut corners all they have to do is advise the signaller controlling the originating area of the train not to let that train out. I've had a Cl.66 wait in the holding sidings at Bescot for 90 minutes one night all because the paperwork hadn't been filled out properly by the CSDC at Doncaster. It's a case of bureaucracy gone mad. I certainly don't miss filling out all those VSTP forms between 1994-2001. What a way to run a railway. Come back BR all is forgiven.
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| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 12:10 #56067 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I've just re-read the Timing Codes page referred to by Airvan00 in post #10 and came across: Quote: Note that as SimSig does not currently have a code for when a train stops for a crew change, timetable writers may use the s, t or normal departure codes, depending on their preferred style.Since there doesn't seem to be an s code, I assume the writer meant "d, t or normal departure codes". Is this correct? (added) Following confirmation of this error by Steamer (post #23), I have corrected this in the Wiki. Thanks Steamer. Last edited: 24/02/2014 at 07:43 by maxand Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 14:16 #56071 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
" said:If you want to be real world then be nervous about running freight trains early. If at ANY point on its journey it is delayed for any reason, you as the signaller that ran it early will get all the delay! That's not what we've been told (not very much further north!) - as long as a freight's run (early) with a workable margin to get to the next regulating point (where it can be held to time if necessary) but something subsequently goes wrong, any resulting delay should be attributed to whatever's gone wrong and not to an O-code. Obviously anything going onto a different region or towards a busy junction needs plenty of co-ordination, but otherwise I struggle to see the logic of unnecessarily holding a train to time...especially if (as one would have done on Friday) it'll then end up stuffing the job because of another late runner. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 15:28 #56074 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
" said:" said:Your lucky in your part of the world then, as down south that would very much go back to the signaller who let the train run early without permission!If you want to be real world then be nervous about running freight trains early. If at ANY point on its journey it is delayed for any reason, you as the signaller that ran it early will get all the delay! Log in to reply |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 15:35 #56075 | |
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GoodbyeMrFish
148 posts |
Also if your playing true to life, crew changes often occur inside the platforms, at Peterborough I have noticed crew changes in platforms 4 and 5 and now 6 and 7, so be wary, if its running early you could be waiting a while for another driver to show up!
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| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 16:10 #56076 | |
Soton_Speed
283 posts |
" said:In the real world the WTT will show the reason why a freight train is stopping - 08C39 for a crew change or 08*39 if a train is looped to give way to another train. Maybe this should be moved to the Feature Requests thread!Would this be easy to incorporate into the core code? It would be very helpful as at the moment the 'siggie' sometimes has to take an educated guess whether the train is booked to wait time or for a crew change thereby changing the ammount if time that can potentially be made up or keeping the job flowing in times of disruption by keeping the train moving. An extreme example from real life that I have seen (on video!) is a class 40(?) on a frieght stopping at Blea Moor to drop off two fresh water cans for the box! - thinking about it, I guess that the then BR timetable would have probably had enough slack in it to cope! In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream... Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 16:22 #56077 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
" said:" said:" said:Your lucky in your part of the world then, as down south that would very much go back to the signaller who let the train run early without permission!If you want to be real world then be nervous about running freight trains early. If at ANY point on its journey it is delayed for any reason, you as the signaller that ran it early will get all the delay! Whether it actually stands up in practice, I've happily never had to find out! We have two regular trains booked to recess in loops on our patch, both only 10 or 20 miles from their destination: if there's a margin to get it there, and the destination can receive it, I don't know how Control could really contribute to the decision! Likewise, one recessed waiting its booked time to traverse a 20-minute section, with a late runner expected to pass at the former's booked time - seems ample justification for getting the first freight on the move early to minimise further delay to the late runner (running the late-runner first would hammer the recessed freight, owing to the long section and single line beyond). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 17:20 #56086 | |
dmaze
88 posts |
In SimSig, if a train is booked to stop in a loop, and it's actually signaled on to the main, it will stop there anyways. In reality, I'm sure a driver knows whether or not they have a "slow" train and whether or not they're expecting to be passed by a faster train; if they're signaled on to the main, will they generally just keep going, call in wrong-route, or stop on the main anyways?
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| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 17:33 #56089 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
In reality, they'll usually take the route offered along the main, even if they're booked to stand in the loop - not just because of the tempting prospect of an early bath, but also because there could be all sorts of reasons for the change of plan - perhaps the following train is late or cancelled, for example, or the loop is already occupied. That shouldn't, of course, apply if the train's booked relief in the loop! That said, I've had one query a route along the main before - the train in question requiring a mobile shunter at its destination to get it clear of the running line, and on this occasion it didn't need to go inside as booked (as the shunter was ready for it). The driver, quite sensibly, wanted to check - as arriving at the destination before the shunter would require a 100-ish mile round trip to get out of the way and try again! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 17:44 #56090 | |
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Steamer
3929 posts |
" said:I've just re-read the Timing Codes page referred to by Airvan00 in post #10 and came across:It'll be d, yes. Crew change is now available in the Core Code (and the time taken for this to occur can be set in Custom Dwell Times), however it's only available alongside another activity (N:, DR: etc.). Would it be possible to make Crew Change available as a tick box (same as Pass, set down etc.), as trains quite often have a crew change midway through a working? It could be indicated by 12c34, to emphasise the reason for the stop. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Pinza |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 18:37 #56095 | |
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Pinza
106 posts |
Hmm. Just fired my computer up to see if there were any further replies to my late night query on freight train regulation. Didn't quite expect such a detailed, helpful and professional response! Thanks for all concerned - I've learned a lot and hope other readers of this thread have too. Personally, I will continue to let freight trains leave early - but route them into loops just in case they want to wait till booked time. Editing timetables is new to me - time to progress beyond newbie status and learn how to do this now! 58050's comments struck a chord with me: In the mid 1990s, I was shiftleader in Warrington TOPS office. A job I loved until privatisation and introduction of TRUST. Suddenly I was charged with finding out why every train was delayed. Signallers in Warrington PSB 'bit my head off' every time I rang them to ask for a delay reason in the new 'blame-game' regime. (They were busy enough without me nagging them!). Resigned in 1997 due to this pressure, but clearly still very interested in railway operations. Getting off subject now - must get back to running the northern WCML with my new knowledge - thanks all Log in to reply |
| Early running freight trains question 23/02/2014 at 18:57 #56096 | |
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mfloyd
186 posts |
" said:Also if your playing true to life, crew changes often occur inside the platforms, at Peterborough I have noticed crew changes in platforms 4 and 5 and now 6 and 7, so be wary, if its running early you could be waiting a while for another driver to show up!Indeed up our way, they have changed one of the FRP from Barrow Hill to Chesterfield P3 as the access is so much better Ripley, Derbyshire Log in to reply |