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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train?

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Released > King's Cross > Train left the station without waiting for its joining train?

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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 31/03/2014 at 23:34 #58116
Finger
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220 posts
While running one of my MP sessions, I've experienced strange behavior of a train supposedly ordered to wait for a join.

In the KX 1955 Steam timetable, 1A20 arrives at King's Cross, then detaches a loco (0A20) from its front and forms 5E20. 5E20 then joins its new loco, 0E20 and departs for Ferme Park CS. (load the first save and see for yourself)

However, during an actual game, 1A20 arrived, divided, formed 5E20 which then departed right away without wanting to join with its loco. The result can be seen in the screenshot - note that the timetable still has J:0E20 in activities, yet it called a TRTS. On top of that, 0A20 is missing from the map, no trace of it although it should have been detached from 1A20.

Note that no "abandon join" command was issued - the event can be reproduced just by loading the attached save and doing nothing.

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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 01/04/2014 at 00:32 #58119
BarryM
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2074 posts
" said:
While running one of my MP sessions, I've experienced strange behavior of a train supposedly ordered to wait for a join.

In the KX 1955 Steam timetable, 1A20 arrives at King's Cross, then detaches a loco (0A20) from its front and forms 5E20. 5E20 then joins its new loco, 0E20 and departs for Ferme Park CS. (load the first save and see for yourself)

However, during an actual game, 1A20 arrived, divided, formed 5E20 which then departed right away without wanting to join with its loco. The result can be seen in the screenshot - note that the timetable still has J:0E20 in activities, yet it called a TRTS. On top of that, 0A20 is missing from the map, no trace of it although it should have been detached from 1A20.

Note that no "abandon join" command was issued - the event can be reproduced just by loading the attached save and doing nothing.
Interesting! 5E20 has lost its location. If you update it at the station, it waits for the join.

PS Could a MODERATOR place this topic in its right location in the Forum?

Edit: Found the problem! 5E20's timetable does not have its correct location. A platform location is needed when running in Loader mode! The same applies to 0A20.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Last edited: 01/04/2014 at 00:43 by BarryM
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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 01/04/2014 at 12:36 #58134
Finger
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220 posts
" said:
Found the problem! 5E20's timetable does not have its correct location. A platform location is needed when running in Loader mode! The same applies to 0A20.
Thanks, but is this really a requirement? I found a much more prosaic cause of the predicament - the timetable for 0A20 doesn't exist at all! When I created a (vanilla) timetable for it, all went well.

It doesn't actually help spotting this problem that the Analyse function reports loads of rubbish on this timetable.

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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 01/04/2014 at 13:06 #58139
y10g9
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did you analyses this TT before starting to play it. I know this tt predates the loader version of the sim and so there may be errors that are causing trains to not appear
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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 01/04/2014 at 13:16 #58140
headshot119
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3199 posts
" said:
did you analyses this TT before starting to play it. I know this tt predates the loader version of the sim and so there may be errors that are causing trains to not appear
It doesn't produce any errors, however it does have 1229 warnings. and 32 rule warnings.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 01/04/2014 at 13:40 #58141
Peter Bennet
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4561 posts
That's why we like to have the Sim version the Timetable was written on added to the name when it's uploaded. Then users will know that it may not work on later Sim releases.

Peter

One of the great problems of our age is that we are governed by people who care more about feelings than they do about thoughts and ideas.
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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 01/04/2014 at 14:29 #58145
headshot119
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3199 posts
" said:
That's why we like to have the Sim version the Timetable was written on added to the name when it's uploaded. Then users will know that it may not work on later Sim releases.

Peter
Saying that Peter even in the .exe version it returns 1226 warnings :S

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 01/04/2014 at 16:15 #58157
y10g9
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462 posts
" said:
" said:
That's why we like to have the Sim version the Timetable was written on added to the name when it's uploaded. Then users will know that it may not work on later Sim releases.

Peter
Saying that Peter even in the .exe version it returns 1226 warnings :S

think thats because trains are joining at loactions that don't have Permisive workings etc because of the 1955 tt being made to work with the sim as was (a cross between 1980s and 2000s)

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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 01/04/2014 at 17:31 #58161
Finger
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220 posts
" said:
" said:
" said:
That's why we like to have the Sim version the Timetable was written on added to the name when it's uploaded. Then users will know that it may not work on later Sim releases.

Peter
Saying that Peter even in the .exe version it returns 1226 warnings :S

think thats because trains are joining at loactions that don't have Permisive workings etc because of the 1955 tt being made to work with the sim as was (a cross between 1980s and 2000s)

Certainly not, that putative reason isn't really true.

One big group of warnings is due to the TT writer did a favor to the signalmen and coded the loco changes like that: DEF: 0Xyy N: 1Yuu J: 0Yzz. That last join is after a next working activity which means it will never be executed, but the signlman needn't hunt the 1Yuu timetable to see which loco hauls the next train. Totally harmless but produces a warning.

But many other warnings (esp. about lost trains) are totally arcane to me, especially if the trains in question run all right.

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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 01/04/2014 at 18:41 #58166
Peter Bennet
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4561 posts
" said:
" said:
That's why we like to have the Sim version the Timetable was written on added to the name when it's uploaded. Then users will know that it may not work on later Sim releases.

Peter
Saying that Peter even in the .exe version it returns 1226 warnings :S
In that case I really should delete it as not fit for purpose - we have to take uploads on trust that they work.

Petere

One of the great problems of our age is that we are governed by people who care more about feelings than they do about thoughts and ideas.
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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 01/04/2014 at 18:43 #58167
headshot119
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3199 posts
" said:
" said:
" said:
That's why we like to have the Sim version the Timetable was written on added to the name when it's uploaded. Then users will know that it may not work on later Sim releases.

Peter
Saying that Peter even in the .exe version it returns 1226 warnings :S
In that case I really should delete it as not fit for purpose - we have to take uploads on trust that they work.

Petere
I didn't think having warnings made it unfit for purpose? Plenty of people have played that TT on both versions and have never had this sort of issue.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 02/04/2014 at 13:01 #58235
TimTamToe
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547 posts
" said:
" said:
" said:
" said:
That's why we like to have the Sim version the Timetable was written on added to the name when it's uploaded. Then users will know that it may not work on later Sim releases.

Peter
Saying that Peter even in the .exe version it returns 1226 warnings :S
In that case I really should delete it as not fit for purpose - we have to take uploads on trust that they work.

Petere
I didn't think having warnings made it unfit for purpose? Plenty of people have played that TT on both versions and have never had this sort of issue.
I always thought that warnings were that just warnings but didn't make the TT not work or unplayable. For instance if you have a train (lets say 1A01) terminates at 21:36 which forms 1A02 which departs at 22:00. If in the TT of 1A01 you have arr time 21:36 and put in 22:00 dep time, (so users know when its next working departs), it issues a warning but doesn't affect the overall running of the TT.

Gareth

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Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 02/04/2014 at 15:53 #58243
GeoffM
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Warnings shouldn't make a timetable unplayable but they certainly could make it challenging/frustrating depending on what those warnings were. I know some timetable writers prefer to leave obvious mistakes in where the source material has a mistake and that mistake is not detrimental. For example, a "next train" working would be fixed but the inbound and outbound platform numbers may left as inconsistent.

As for putting departure times in for a terminating train, IMHO this is spoon feeding. It also used to mess up ARS regulation as it relied on the times being accurate. With a big difference between (real) arrival and (fake) departure time, it altered the regulation strategies such that it was giving priority to trains it shouldn't have. Hence the warning, and the ARS code has been altered so even if the warning is ignored, ARS will still handle it better.

SimSig Boss
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The following user said thank you: TimTamToe
Train left the station without waiting for its joining train? 13/05/2014 at 21:11 #60453
Finger
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Just in case anyone is interested, I've checked the timetable and corrected this error (and similar, ie. activities referencing nonexistent trains). The result is attached.
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The following user said thank you: BarryM