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Confused by TSRs

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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 14:53 #58524
maxand
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Temporary Speed Restrictions (TSRs) are IMO not well explained in the manual (glossary entry contains dead link to Incident Control Panel, which is only an illustration), and I would like to experience them in a sim, so would like to ask:

1) I understand they come into action at Standard Level and above, but how are they displayed on the panel? Are they just announced in a popup or message and do I have to put collars outside them, or what? There's nothing on the signalling display symbols page to show what a section of track looks like when a TSR is in force. There's no display option in Messages for TSRs either that I can see.

2) I understand that trains (particularly freight trains) may have an engineering allowance (Eng) included at certain locations in their TT to allow for delays while TSRs are in force for maintenance. (Freight trains in particular as they take longer to slow down and speed up). However, if no TSR is in force for that route section, the Eng allowance may safely be subtracted from the arrival time. Apart from this, is there any indication to the signaller that a train is travelling slower because of a TSR (e.g., something on the Train List?)

3) In real life, if a TC fails and is being attended to by maintenance, wouldn't that constitute a TSR if it were deemed safe for trains to proceed across it, and does SimSig replicate this situation?

Thanks.

Last edited: 07/04/2014 at 14:54 by maxand
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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 14:59 #58525
Danny252
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" said:
1) I understand they come into action at Standard Level and above, but how are they displayed on the panel?
They aren't, unless you decide to mark them somehow.

Quote:
Apart from this, is there any indication to the signaller that a train is travelling slower because of a TSR (e.g., something on the Train List?)
The train speed being lower than the normal linespeed would be the indication, although that would require familiarity with the layout.

Quote:
3) In real life, if a TC fails and is being attended to by maintenance, wouldn't that constitute a TSR if it were deemed safe for trains to proceed across it, and does SimSig replicate this situation?
No, cautioning trains is different from TSRs (or Emergency Speed Restrictions, ESRs). The first train over the failure should examine the line to determine that it is safe, and Simsig includes a reduced speed for trains undertaking that activity.

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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 16:18 #58526
Steamer
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" said:
1) I understand they come into action at Standard Level and above, but how are they displayed on the panel? Are they just announced in a popup or message and do I have to put collars outside them, or what?
You will receive a message in the Incident Report at the start of the simulation, informing you what (if any) TSRs are in force that day. For example, starting Westbury might produce "TSR, Woodborough DGL, 5mph". These are randomly decided when you start a new game, and remain the same for the duration of the simulation, regardless of loading and saving. There's no need to collar any signals, but you may want to place a sticky note at the affected location to remind you.

Quote:
3) In real life, if a TC fails and is being attended to by maintenance, wouldn't that constitute a TSR if it were deemed safe for trains to proceed across it, and does SimSig replicate this situation?
TSRs aren't used (as far as I know) when maintenance is in progress. A group of track workers will have someone on lookout duty, warns them if a train is approaching. Drivers will also sound their horn when approaching. If they're working on the track itself, they'll arrange with the signaller for a line or lines to be blocked while they do what they're doing.

TSRs are generally used where track or other structures aren't quite up to standard. For example, during the recent flooding, some bridges had TSRs over them as a precaution, as did some embankments and cuttings. This reduced the forces acting on soil etc. when a train passed, preventing further damage.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 07/04/2014 at 16:20 by Steamer
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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 16:23 #58527
JamesN
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Quote:
1) I understand they come into action at Standard Level and above, but how are they displayed on the panel? Are they just announced in a popup or message and do I have to put collars outside them, or what? There's nothing on the signalling display symbols page to show what a section of track looks like when a TSR is in force. There's no display option in Messages for TSRs either that I can see.
Not necessarily - the "difficulty" level they come into action at depends entirely on the developer. Some choose to have them apply at random above a certain difficulty level, others prefer a separate option. It's an inconsistency we are aware of and discussions have happened to attempt to rectify the inconsistency.

There is no display option for them. On simulation startup you'll get a series of messages which will be recorded in the Incident Report (F7 window) which give the details of any TSRs in force. On real-life panels and workstations the methods vary. On an IECC workstation I've seen the Traction Isolation reminder applied to the track-circuits on which a TSR is placed (see here for an example).

Panels on the other hand tend to have some kind of temporary indication placed on the panel - for example this "20" Fridge magnet on the diamond at Castleford Jn, at Manchester Piccadilly SC. (real-life) Sticky notes are often used for this purpose.

Quote:
2) I understand that trains (particularly freight trains) may have an engineering allowance (Eng) included at certain locations in their TT to allow for delays while TSRs are in force for maintenance. (Freight trains in particular as they take longer to slow down and speed up). However, if no TSR is in force for that route section, the Eng allowance may safely be subtracted from the arrival time. Apart from this, is there any indication to the signaller that a train is travelling slower because of a TSR (e.g., something on the Train List?)
IRL the signaller would only have his/her knowledge that the train is taking longer than usual to pass through the section. You can psuedo work it out from the trainlist if you're familiar enough with the area to know the speed limit through a section, and see that a train is travelling at a constant, lower speed than that limit. Also, I would delve into the complexities of subtracting unused engineering allowances - just think of unused allowances as free minutes, and be happy if you have some left over.

Quote:
3) In real life, if a TC fails and is being attended to by maintenance, wouldn't that constitute a TSR if it were deemed safe for trains to proceed across it, and does SimSig replicate this situation?
No, most certainly not. A TSR is exactly that - a Temporary Speed Restriction, that is a short-term change to the speed limit over a given section of railway.

When you have a TC failure, by the rulebook you should not allow a train to pass over the affected or any adjacent lines without stopping the train and cautioning the driver first (I believe it was known as Regulation 9 in old money) - In SimSig this is covered by the Examine Line / Pass Signal & Examine Line options in a red signal call. You do this because you don't know what has caused the track circtui failure. It could just be a blown fuse, or a shorted wire. On the other hand flooding and other sorts of obstructions can also cause track circuits to show occupied, and while it may only be showing occupied on one of a pair of lines, the obstruction could be foul of both. You don't want to send a train at 100mph into an obstruction, so you stop him short of the potential obstruction and tell him to examine the line ahead of him. Once he reports line is clear you can resume 'normal' running. But even this means of cautioning trains isn't a TSR, it's just stopping drivers and telling them to watch out.

EDIT: Steamer posted while I was typing

Last edited: 07/04/2014 at 16:25 by JamesN
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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 16:32 #58528
kbarber
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" said:


TSRs are generally used where track or other structures aren't quite up to standard. For example, during the recent flooding, some bridges had TSRs over them as a precaution, as did some embankments and cuttings. This reduced the forces acting on soil etc. when a train passed, preventing further damage.
Also often imposed for such things as 'condition of track', which can be everything from a broken rail to a spot where there's a bit of rough riding. Or while track settles down after relaying. Or for a temporary realignment as part of a larger job (an underbridge might be built by slewing the track out of the way, digging a big hole and building the bridge over it then slewing the track back into place).

There used to be an elaborate system of handsignalling for imposing a TSR in emergency; I don't know how it's done now. In those circumstances there was a specified standard speed (used to be 15mph but I believe it's now 20mph) and, provided that was appropriate, a signalman might not need to know anything about it. If a lower speed was needed, a signalman was required to stop and caution all trains. Once warning boards had been provided and the details of the restriction had been published, handsignalling could be withdrawn (as could cautioning of trains if it had been necessary). This latter condition is what is simulated in SimSig.

Most TSRs are preplanned and, if they're interested, signalmen can find out all about them from the Weekly Operating Notice. That's the limit of the information most bobbys will have (and probably as much, if not more, than they'll ever think they want).

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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 16:49 #58529
Steamer
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Wiki added to.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 16:58 #58530
Peter Bennet
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It is possible to add TSRs during play. In fact that's how my LUL Victoria line enforces delays (0mph) and other disruption, though they are not advertised as such.

Peter

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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 21:25 #58537
clive
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" said:

You will receive a message in the Incident Report at the start of the simulation, informing you what (if any) TSRs are in force that day. For example, starting Westbury might produce "TSR, Woodborough DGL, 5mph". These are randomly decided when you start a new game, and remain the same for the duration of the simulation, regardless of loading and saving.
Don't count on it. It's perfectly possible to turn TSRs on and off at any point in a simulation, or to change the speeds.

The bridge strike in Cambridge is a TSR that changes from line speed to 0 to 5 to 15 to 30 to line speed (I may have misremembered the numbers).

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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 21:28 #58539
clive
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" said:


There used to be an elaborate system of handsignalling for imposing a TSR in emergency; I don't know how it's done now.

Daleks.

See 14.39 on RailSigns.

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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 21:40 #58540
Steamer
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" said:
" said:

You will receive a message in the Incident Report at the start of the simulation, informing you what (if any) TSRs are in force that day. For example, starting Westbury might produce "TSR, Woodborough DGL, 5mph". These are randomly decided when you start a new game, and remain the same for the duration of the simulation, regardless of loading and saving.
Don't count on it. It's perfectly possible to turn TSRs on and off at any point in a simulation, or to change the speeds.

The bridge strike in Cambridge is a TSR that changes from line speed to 0 to 5 to 15 to 30 to line speed (I may have misremembered the numbers).
At present, do TSRs advertised as such change during the game?

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 07/04/2014 at 21:40 by Steamer
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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 22:02 #58541
Peter Bennet
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" said:
" said:
" said:

You will receive a message in the Incident Report at the start of the simulation, informing you what (if any) TSRs are in force that day. For example, starting Westbury might produce "TSR, Woodborough DGL, 5mph". These are randomly decided when you start a new game, and remain the same for the duration of the simulation, regardless of loading and saving.
Don't count on it. It's perfectly possible to turn TSRs on and off at any point in a simulation, or to change the speeds.

The bridge strike in Cambridge is a TSR that changes from line speed to 0 to 5 to 15 to 30 to line speed (I may have misremembered the numbers).
At present, do TSRs advertised as such change during the game?
Yes: if the developer makes them - like Clive says on Cambridge (and which I've cloned onto Edinburgh and others).

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
Last edited: 07/04/2014 at 22:03 by Peter Bennet
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Confused by TSRs 07/04/2014 at 22:56 #58542
Late Turn
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" said:
" said:


There used to be an elaborate system of handsignalling for imposing a TSR in emergency; I don't know how it's done now.

Daleks.

See 14.39 on RailSigns.

Prior to the boards (and Daleks) being erected - which is what I thought Keith was referring to - it's now a case of stopping and advising drivers at the signal in rear. I'm not sure exactly how it was done in years gone by, but I think it involved a yellow handsignal of some sort! A recent change is that an ESR can now be less restrictive than 20mph prior to the boards going out, and there's no need to stop trains that won't be affected (for example, a class 7 train for a 60mph ESR).

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Confused by TSRs 08/04/2014 at 07:36 #58544
maxand
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Thanks for all your replies and to Steamer for editing the Wiki.

If the Incident Control Panel allows you the player to create your own TSR, what is the purpose of this? Is it just to enable you to make the simulation more difficult for yourself? Also, if most TSRs forced on the player last throughout the duration of the sim, why be able to delete the TSR you've created, and when would one do this?

I took a look at the Cambridge sim v2.201 and all I could find is the option to include TSRs. I could not find "TSR" or "temporary speed restriction" on the manual page, nor any mention of "bridge strike" that Clive refers to. If these TSRs are indeed transient, is the user notified of their removal via the Incident Report window?

It would seem a good idea if all sims at scenarios where TSRs could be applied had a duration option, meaning that the user could choose whether they should apply across the whole TT or only for a few hours, which would then allow him to attempt to catch up afterwards. Or maybe some could automatically apply during the whole TT and others for a limited time.

Last edited: 08/04/2014 at 07:37 by maxand
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Confused by TSRs 08/04/2014 at 09:26 #58546
kbarber
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" said:
" said:
" said:


There used to be an elaborate system of handsignalling for imposing a TSR in emergency; I don't know how it's done now.

Daleks.

See 14.39 on RailSigns.

Prior to the boards (and Daleks) being erected - which is what I thought Keith was referring to - it's now a case of stopping and advising drivers at the signal in rear. I'm not sure exactly how it was done in years gone by, but I think it involved a yellow handsignal of some sort! A recent change is that an ESR can now be less restrictive than 20mph prior to the boards going out, and there's no need to stop trains that won't be affected (for example, a class 7 train for a 60mph ESR).

Yes, basically I was talking about what happens before the boards go up.

The arrangements used to involve three (normally) handsignalmen. There would be a distant handsignalman posted a mile from the start of the ESR (1.25 miles where line speed was 100mph or over). He would put a detonator on the rail and give a yellow handsignal waved slowly from side to side to any approaching train. There would then be a handsignalman at the start of the ESR with a yellow handsignal held steadily and at the end would be the third with a green handsignal waved slowly from side to side.

An exception was made if the ESR covered a very short distance (what constituted a short distance was nowhere specified); in that case there was just one handsignalman at the ESR, with a steady yellow handsignal until the train was close to him at which point he changed it to a green waved slowly from side to side.

Once the various boards had been erected, the handsignalmen at the site could be withdrawn. The handsignalman at the warning board was required to remain until 24 hours after details had been published (in other words until 24 hours after a notice of the ESR had been posted in the 'late notice case' at all the drivers' depots affected).

As I say, unless the ESR needed to be less than 15mph no-one even needed to tell the signalman any of this was happening!

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Confused by TSRs 08/04/2014 at 13:05 #58551
Hugh Jampton
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" said:

If the Incident Control Panel allows you the player to create your own TSR, what is the purpose of this? Is it just to enable you to make the simulation more difficult for yourself?

Hosts of multiplayer sessions might create TSRs to make the session more challenging.


" said:

Also, if most TSRs forced on the player last throughout the duration of the sim, why be able to delete the TSR you've created, and when would one do this?

Having created a TSR, a host might wish to delete or amend it some time later to simulate the line being returned to normal speed after the imaginary track repairs / inspections have been carried out.

Last edited: 08/04/2014 at 13:06 by Hugh Jampton
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Confused by TSRs 08/04/2014 at 16:11 #58571
Steamer
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" said:

If the Incident Control Panel allows you the player to create your own TSR, what is the purpose of this? Is it just to enable you to make the simulation more difficult for yourself?
Yes, in short. It could allow you (for instance) to simulate real-life TSRs currently in force.

Quote:
I took a look at the Cambridge sim v2.201 and all I could find is the option to include TSRs. I could not find "TSR" or "temporary speed restriction" on the manual page, nor any mention of "bridge strike" that Clive refers to.
The bridge strike is a surprise disruption that can happen randomly if you run the simulation in Difficult mode. I assume (I've never actually had this happen in a game) that it's explained through the Incident Control Panel if it happens.

Quote:
It would seem a good idea if all sims at scenarios where TSRs could be applied had a duration option, meaning that the user could choose whether they should apply across the whole TT or only for a few hours, which would then allow him to attempt to catch up afterwards. Or maybe some could automatically apply during the whole TT and others for a limited time.
In reality, TSRs don't tend to change that often- 'Temporary' is on a scale of weeks. There was one near my local station a while ago that was in force for a couple of months.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Confused by TSRs 08/04/2014 at 16:17 #58572
Danny252
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" said:
Quote:
It would seem a good idea if all sims at scenarios where TSRs could be applied had a duration option, meaning that the user could choose whether they should apply across the whole TT or only for a few hours, which would then allow him to attempt to catch up afterwards. Or maybe some could automatically apply during the whole TT and others for a limited time.
In reality, TSRs don't tend to change that often- 'Temporary' is on a scale of weeks. There was one near my local station a while ago that was in force for a couple of months.
Yes, if they've gone to the trouble of publishing it and putting up signs, it's not something you get rid of the very next day in most cases! They would tend to stick around until some engineering work has rectified the fault, or a given amount of time has passed for things like bedding down ballast, although I would imagine that even then follow-up inspections/work are required before those are lifted.

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Confused by TSRs 08/04/2014 at 16:30 #58574
dwelham313
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Thats true, there are several reasons why a TSR may be imposed. A track defect for example will be rectified pretty quickly - usually overnight whereas a TSR for a wet-bed may be a week or so. For track renewal etc it's usually around a week whilst it beds in as Danny says.

Poor sighting on a foot or farm crossing is an increasingly common cause of long-term TSRs - there are 3 around Shepreth Branch Jn which have been there for over 3 years! I assume these will only disappear when the crossing is removed/upgraded!

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Confused by TSRs 08/04/2014 at 21:10 #58585
clive
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" said:

I took a look at the Cambridge sim v2.201 and all I could find is the option to include TSRs. I could not find "TSR" or "temporary speed restriction" on the manual page, nor any mention of "bridge strike" that Clive refers to.
TSRs aren't mentioned because they are a core code feature. That's not what sim manuals are for. The bridge strike was a stealth feature waiting for someone to run into - I can still remember the indignant forum posting the first time someone did - so I didn't document it. It's self-documenting anyway; you get messages in the message area or on F4; I forget which offhand.

Quote:

If these TSRs are indeed transient, is the user notified of their removal via the Incident Report window?
See above.

Quote:

It would seem a good idea if all sims at scenarios where TSRs could be applied had a duration option, meaning that the user could choose whether they should apply across the whole TT or only for a few hours, which would then allow him to attempt to catch up afterwards. Or maybe some could automatically apply during the whole TT and others for a limited time.
That's up to the sim author; I don't see that there's a single rule that should apply to all sims.

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Confused by TSRs 08/04/2014 at 21:43 #58588
Peter Bennet
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" said:
Thats true, there are several reasons why a TSR may be imposed. A track defect for example will be rectified pretty quickly - usually overnight whereas a TSR for a wet-bed may be a week or so. For track renewal etc it's usually around a week whilst it beds in as Danny says.

Poor sighting on a foot or farm crossing is an increasingly common cause of long-term TSRs - there are 3 around Shepreth Branch Jn which have been there for over 3 years! I assume these will only disappear when the crossing is removed/upgraded!
As someone said in another post TSRs are rarely temporary in terms of a couple of hours - at very least a day. I suppose that a TSR (perhaps more correctly referred to as an ESR?) could be used if you instructed a train to drive with caution for a short period - suspected trespass, for example (we had one the other day, ran from Arlesey to Hitchin at walking pace.

Peter

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Confused by TSRs 09/04/2014 at 06:20 #58596
dwelham313
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A TSR has to be published in the WON so that drivers are aware of its speed and location beforehand, if it's not published it becomes an ESR (emergency speed restriction). Likewise TSR becomes ESR if the speed is lower than that published, at a different location to that published or the speed is eased and re-restricted. An ESR comes with an additional AWS magnet and an emergency indicator (Dalek).

An ESR would not be used for a trespass incident because it would take too long to install the boards, on a four track line that would be 8 AWS magnets, four daleks, and 16 warning/commencement/termination boards!

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Confused by TSRs 09/04/2014 at 16:07 #58620
Jay_G
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Very good description there mate! Down our way, TSRs are also placed when staff are working red zone in darkness (20mph I believe), and along side some T3 possessions for staff protection.

Plus, I suppose cautioning for trespass wouldn't have a 'set' speed, each driver would have his own version of caution, and each location would be different, line of sight and all that!!

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Confused by TSRs 06/05/2014 at 17:20 #60141
Slash
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Staff working red zone in darkness would be emergency work covered by Signaller stopping and cautioning.

I imposed a 5mph speed through a section the Brighton Sim. "Ho ho ho this is funny" i thought. Once trains were backed up to Brighton, i thought "This has gone into the realms of unplayable"
By now i'd saved the game, exited and reloaded at a different time. When i reloaded, the TSR was still in force, but not showing in the Incident Control Panel.
After some head scratching and regulation swearing, i thought "I'll just over lay it with another TSR of higher speed, say 20mph." Unfortunately my trains continued to travel at 6mph {yes, fresh trains through the affected area}.

Has anyone else experienced this problem?

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Confused by TSRs 06/05/2014 at 21:52 #60171
clive
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I can't explain why you couldn't see the TSR, but TSRs are cumulative, so adding a new one doesn't cancel what's already there.
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Confused by TSRs 07/05/2014 at 15:45 #60186
Slash
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I just tried again. I identified a new Track Circuit, Applied the TSR. Saved and Exited. Reloaded and not showing in TSR menu of Incident Control panel.
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