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Why scrolly?

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Why scrolly? 15/06/2014 at 12:16 #61674
Muzer
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This is purely out of curiosity, not a gripe or a complaint. Given how seriously SimSig normally takes accuracy and realism, why are so many sims moving towards being scrolly? Paged is, in most cases, the more accurate and realistic, and I personally don't find it much harder to get to grips with than scrolly. Is it easier to code or something, or does the benefit of it being slightly easier to play (as I said, I seem to handle paged sims perfectly fine - I've had plenty of fun with Waterloo, NLL and Cambridge and it didn't take me any longer than usual to get used to these - but I can see how scrolly would be slightly easier for some people) outweigh the drawback of it being less realistic enough to make it worthwhile? Or is there some other reason I'm missing?

Incidentally, I can never get the number keys in scrolly sims to work in quite the right way - they either skip too much so there are "missing" sections, or not enough so they don't quite cover the whole sim.

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Why scrolly? 15/06/2014 at 13:10 #61675
mfcooper
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The very quick answer is that a paged sim is limited to 6 views and a scrolly sim has no size limit.

However, I do not know why there is a limit to 6 pages.

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Why scrolly? 15/06/2014 at 13:11 #61676
Steamer
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Quote:
Paged is, in most cases, the more accurate and realistic, and I personally don't find it much harder to get to grips with than scrolly.
I'd say scrolly is often the most realistic. Ironically (due to the Conflict of Interest) most SimSig simulations are of PSBs or other non-computer based boxes, which are laid out in the 'scrolly' format. As far as I know, only Fenchurch, Liverpool Street, Marylebone (excluding the Banbury and LUL areas) and the Didcot half of SwinDid are IECCs.

Out of interest, is it possible to build a 'proper' paged simulation on the Loader? I know Victoria LUL and Fenchurch have the option of a page-like display within a scrolly window.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Why scrolly? 15/06/2014 at 13:29 #61677
Peter Bennet
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" said:

Out of interest, is it possible to build a 'proper' paged simulation on the Loader?
Yes, but what you can't do is make the choice on launch. It has to be one thing or the other, though which is simply a T/F setting in the data.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
Last edited: 15/06/2014 at 13:29 by Peter Bennet
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Why scrolly? 15/06/2014 at 13:30 #61678
Stephen Fulcher
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Paged is in some ways easier to work single-handed.

You cannot easily use multiple monitors with paged sims, and they do not work as well in windowed mode, so you are a bit limited as to what else you can do at the same time.

Paged is definitely more realistic as it closely mimics a real IECC display. Scrolly does not really have any precedent in British signalling practice, but for home computers it has its advantages.

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Why scrolly? 15/06/2014 at 13:37 #61679
Peter Bennet
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When I did Victora LUL I preferred the paged layout but the scrolly better represented the display at Cobourg Street in my view.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Why scrolly? 15/06/2014 at 17:05 #61691
Danny252
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" said:
The very quick answer is that a paged sim is limited to 6 views and a scrolly sim has no size limit.

However, I do not know why there is a limit to 6 pages.
It's certainly not a limit on real signalling centres, as several now go above 6, but perhaps it was a limitation in the original IECC software?

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Why scrolly? 15/06/2014 at 18:47 #61694
clive
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" said:
" said:

Out of interest, is it possible to build a 'proper' paged simulation on the Loader?
Yes, but what you can't do is make the choice on launch. It has to be one thing or the other, though which is simply a T/F setting in the data.

And this is why Fenchurch Street has the fake paged arrangement - I wanted to offer a scrolly option.

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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 01:56 #61707
maxand
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So far no one has mentioned the fact that six pages really require six monitors (screens). How many players are able to afford more than one?
Last edited: 16/06/2014 at 01:57 by maxand
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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 02:29 #61708
Muzer
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I'm not convinced that it does, any more than scrolly requires enough monitors to fit the entire layout at once on. It would help, sure, but I've played plenty of sims (including busy ones like Waterloo with all the ARS switched off) in paged mode with only one monitor - a relatively small one (laptop) at that. In fact, the fast and accurate page switching (using the number keys) of paged if anything makes it EASIER to play on smaller monitors than scrolly (where you have to grapple with horizontal and vertical scrolling for large layouts).
Last edited: 16/06/2014 at 02:30 by Muzer
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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 03:08 #61709
GeoffM
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" said:
" said:
The very quick answer is that a paged sim is limited to 6 views and a scrolly sim has no size limit.

However, I do not know why there is a limit to 6 pages.
It's certainly not a limit on real signalling centres, as several now go above 6, but perhaps it was a limitation in the original IECC software?
IECC was limited to 8 but bear in mind only 2-3 of those would be overviews; the rest detail views. It's since been increased (to 12?) but I think only for supervisory screens or big, back wall overviews (like Rugby has, albeit not IECC), not for signallers. There is a ruling somewhere that says the signaller must be able to see all of their trackage at once without impediments like pop-up menus overlaying the track.

Paged sims don't really work too well on widescreen and hi-res monitors IMHO, which are somewhat more common now than 15 years ago when SimSig was first produced.

SimSig Boss
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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 06:32 #61711
DriverCurran
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It is always worth remembering that if some of the more recent larger sims had been issued as paged sims, they would not have been possible. Indeed one of the sims that I'm currently working on will never fit onto 6 screens, or at not in any easy to use format.

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 06:47 #61713
Peter Bennet
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" said:
It is always worth remembering that if some of the more recent larger sims had been issued as paged sims, they would not have been possible. Indeed one of the sims that I'm currently working on will never fit onto 6 screens, or at not in any easy to use format.

Paul
Reminds me, as I may have said before, Edinburgh started life as 2 Sims (North and South) of 6+4 pages respectively. I suspect Motherwell would have been similar.


" said:


IECC was limited to 8 but bear in mind only 2-3 of those would be overviews; the rest detail views. It's since been increased (to 12?) but I think only for supervisory screens or big, back wall overviews (like Rugby has, albeit not IECC), not for signallers. There is a ruling somewhere that says the signaller must be able to see all of their trackage at once without impediments like pop-up menus overlaying the track.

Paged sims don't really work too well on widescreen and hi-res monitors IMHO, which are somewhat more common now than 15 years ago when SimSig was first produced.
Is that per workstation or per box?

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
Last edited: 16/06/2014 at 06:47 by Peter Bennet
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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 13:40 #61721
Andrew G
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When I visited the East Midlands Signalling Centre at Derby the Signalling Shift Manager had one overview screen on another desk - he did explain the main desk was at at full capacity - sods law I don't have a picture - but that there would eventually be two SSM per shift when the full complement of work stations were commissioned.

I have got pictures of South Wales and Upminster. At Cardiff the overview screen for Shrewsbury North has been tagged on, but is out of sight to the left of the picture.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/10645333536/in/set-72157637258752486

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/10715943303/in/set-72157637393666933

Last edited: 16/06/2014 at 15:02 by Andrew G
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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 14:42 #61726
GW43125
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[Deleted] Post has served its purpose (to point out an unfortunate spelling mistake).

Peter


I am sorry for the joke.

Jamie.

Last edited: 16/06/2014 at 17:29 by GW43125
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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 15:03 #61729
Andrew G
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[deleted quote]

Thanks - corrected now.

Last edited: 16/06/2014 at 15:09 by Peter Bennet
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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 15:16 #61730
GeoffM
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" said:
" said:
It is always worth remembering that if some of the more recent larger sims had been issued as paged sims, they would not have been possible. Indeed one of the sims that I'm currently working on will never fit onto 6 screens, or at not in any easy to use format.

Paul
Reminds me, as I may have said before, Edinburgh started life as 2 Sims (North and South) of 6+4 pages respectively. I suspect Motherwell would have been similar.


" said:


IECC was limited to 8 but bear in mind only 2-3 of those would be overviews; the rest detail views. It's since been increased (to 12?) but I think only for supervisory screens or big, back wall overviews (like Rugby has, albeit not IECC), not for signallers. There is a ruling somewhere that says the signaller must be able to see all of their trackage at once without impediments like pop-up menus overlaying the track.

Paged sims don't really work too well on widescreen and hi-res monitors IMHO, which are somewhat more common now than 15 years ago when SimSig was first produced.
Is that per workstation or per box?

Peter
Per workstation. An IECC was limited to three workstations though, which means most IECCs have more than one IECC. :blink:

SimSig Boss
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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 15:24 #61731
Stephen Fulcher
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" said:
" said:
It is always worth remembering that if some of the more recent larger sims had been issued as paged sims, they would not have been possible. Indeed one of the sims that I'm currently working on will never fit onto 6 screens, or at not in any easy to use format.

Paul
Reminds me, as I may have said before, Edinburgh started life as 2 Sims (North and South) of 6+4 pages respectively. I suspect Motherwell would have been similar.


" said:


IECC was limited to 8 but bear in mind only 2-3 of those would be overviews; the rest detail views. It's since been increased (to 12?) but I think only for supervisory screens or big, back wall overviews (like Rugby has, albeit not IECC), not for signallers. There is a ruling somewhere that says the signaller must be able to see all of their trackage at once without impediments like pop-up menus overlaying the track.

Paged sims don't really work too well on widescreen and hi-res monitors IMHO, which are somewhat more common now than 15 years ago when SimSig was first produced.
Is that per workstation or per box?

Peter
Per workstation.

Whilst it is true that most of the recent sims would not have fitted on six views, it is also true that in the real world they would not have to. Motherwell for instance would be upto thirty-six screens as you have a maximum of six multiplied by the number of panels in the box. To think one person would supervise that area on their own, even with ARS, is fanciful at best.

This is an area of reality that is often forgotted in Simsig, and it is true that most of the recent sims realisically would be many separate workstations. Even though there may be no physical maximum on a scrolly sim, it is getting very difficult to keep track of some of the sims with a single monitor, which does affect playability, especially the ones that require a lot of up/down scrolling as wellas left/right.

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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 17:29 #61733
GW43125
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My apologies for hijacking the thread with a joke about an unfortunate typo.

I apologize to all concerned.
DSW

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Why scrolly? 16/06/2014 at 20:08 #61737
arabianights
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" said:
So far no one has mentioned the fact that six pages really require six monitors (screens). How many players are able to afford more than one?
You could add another reasonably decent monitor to a normal desktop for under £100.

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Why scrolly? 17/06/2014 at 13:54 #61761
Forest Pines
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But there are some regulars on here who say that £25 for a payware sim is unaffordable.
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Why scrolly? 17/06/2014 at 14:07 #61767
Steamer
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Is it even possible to split the window on paged simulations? I've never seen a button that would allow you to create a 'new view' so to speak, so I can't see how you would do it. That said, I don't have multiple monitors (and never really felt the need for them) so I can't experiment properly with it.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Why scrolly? 18/06/2014 at 04:13 #61802
Hawk777
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Even if you can’t split the window natively, you (presumably) could always boot up a multiplayer server and then run a second copy of the sim and connect to it as a client.
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Why scrolly? 18/06/2014 at 12:07 #61817
Stephen Fulcher
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" said:
But there are some regulars on here who say that £25 for a payware sim is unaffordable.
For some people it may be, and it is quite probable that the same people only have one monitor too.

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