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| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 23/06/2014 at 20:22 #61950 | |
Steamer
3921 posts 
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As was touched on in this thread, there's quite a lot of duplicated information on the Wiki. At present, we have the Simulation Manuals, which are currently being transferred to the new 'Simulations' area, to tidy up the Wiki's structure. We also have, for some simulations, a page in the 'Sims' name space, which lists some of the properties of the simulation- for example, these pages for Exeter, Gloucester and SwinDid. These pages are entirely separate from the main simulation manual, and are linked to from this page. So: Do you find them useful? Do they have further potential? Should similar pages be created for the simulations which don't currently have them? Or should the be removed? Please vote above, or leave comments below. The poll is open until Monday 30th June, and is merely to gauge opinion- a 'No' vote won't necessarily result in the pages being removed if issues are raised that require further consideration. Obviously, Geoff and the other Moderators can veto any of this. I've started the topic because I think we either need pages for all the simulations or pages for none, and I don't want to delete or create a job lot of pages without knowing whether or not people find them useful. I feel I should add that I'm in no way 'official'- I've just seen it as job that needs doing. Note- the 'sims' namespace currently contains some simulation manuals, these will of course be kept and moved to the 'Simulations' area in due course. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 23/06/2014 at 20:38 #61951 | |
welshdragon
315 posts |
I personally think that those pages should come under the "products" tab above as it may seem to a newbie there aren't a lot of sims when there actually are. You could (theoretically) then have it link to the simulation download page, the general donations page in the shop and a link to the manual in the wiki. Consider the above a separate suggestion, bunged in here for convenience 
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 23/06/2014 at 21:37 #61953 | |
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peterb
451 posts |
I think the information on the pages is good, but it should maybe be more accessible than it currently is. Adding this information to an expanded 'products' page - for all simulations and not just those newer ones would probably be more helpful and insightful to beginners and newcomers to SimSig to help them see the range of simulations available, donation- and payware and choose one(s) right for them.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 23/06/2014 at 21:52 #61954 | |
GeoffM
6281 posts |
Generally the "Products" tab on the main web site (ie here, not the Wiki) lists the Loader sims as and when they become (re)released. I personally don't see the point of a separate Wiki page from the manual - I have enough trouble forming a coherent sentence as it is, let alone trying to find new words for a separate ad/product page!
SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 23/06/2014 at 21:59 #61955 | |
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peterb
451 posts |
Is there any reason why the products tab couldn't list all the simulations available, regardless of age?
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| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 23/06/2014 at 22:26 #61956 | |
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GeoffM
6281 posts |
" said:Is there any reason why the products tab couldn't list all the simulations available, regardless of age?The non-Loader sims are of varying vintages and thus features. They'll get moved over as time goes by. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 23/06/2014 at 23:21 #61957 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
No, BUT all the information within should be incorporated into the manual - specifically things like what sims they can be chained to, etc.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 01:35 #61958 | |
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49.123
2 posts |
Hi everyone, it's my first post on the forum :) I don't consider myself a newbie anymore, although I'm still in this process of learning SimSig, having started playing occasionally about a year ago. I find these pages useful because each provides the basic information of a particular sim: an overview of the simulated area, the complexity of the layout, the intensity and variety of traffic, any unique features, and whether the sim is suitable for one-person operation. As someone who's still exploring the SimSig world, it helps me to choose my next simulation when I have some brief description of a particular simulation is about. Consider this: everyone knows to start with Royston, but after that there isn't much guidance on what to try next. Looking at the list of Simulation Manuals, it's impossible to tell which are beginner level sims, which are of intermediate difficulty, and which are for experts only. The Simulations Available page serves this purpose. Ideally a new player should go one small step at a time, taking a slightly harder sim each time as his/her skill gradually builds. The problem is finding what that next sim is. By looking at the manual alone, it's not easy to get a sense of how simple or difficult a simulation is, because the manual is not designed for giving an overall summary, instead it usually concerns with how to operate the sim, especially how to deal with specific areas that require special attention. The quality of individual pages does vary, but since there is value for having these pages, I believe the solution is to modify those pages that need improvement, and not to delete them. Euston and Lime Street are great as they are; Swindon A & B's introduction is a bit long and a duplication from the manual, so perhaps some re-writing would be nice; then there are some simulations which simply do not have such a page yet. So that's how I see it — I hope the pages will be kept! Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Steamer, maxand |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 07:30 #61959 | |
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Steamer
3921 posts
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Perhaps the 'Available simulations' page could be re-organised so that, instead of simulations being sorted by Region they're placed under the headings: 'Beginner', 'Intermediate', 'Pro' and 'ARS'?
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 24/06/2014 at 07:30 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: delticfan |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 08:02 #61960 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
If I was a SimSig first-timer, the first place I would go to try it out would be the Downloads page, where it states Quote: To see the available simulations, you need to be registered at this website (which is free) and logged in.This doesn't mention the Wiki, therefore no mention of the Available Simulations page. Which is just as well, because this page seems somewhat incomplete and attempts to duplicate everything in the Downloads section, making it prone to error by omission. What is missing from the Wiki is a Comparison chart where sims are graded by difficulty. This might be because opinions differ on how to rank these sims. The issue is actually quite complex, if objectivity is to be maintained. I don't think a mere description of each Sim is needed. Leave this for each sim's manual. On one hand there is a need to list sims alphabetically; on the other there is an equal need to rank them by properties, including difficulties. Suggestions: 1) Rephrase the text on the Downloads page so that further information on each sim is to be found in the Wiki under Simulations, and to access this requires free registration. 2) The Simulations section should have two subsections, Comparisons and Manuals. 3) The Comparisons page should contain a table listing of sims, preferably the same as on the Manuals page, to keep everything consistent. But it doesn't really matter if they are listed alphabetically. It's quite easy to add, move or remove a row within a table on a Web or Wiki page. 4) Columns for each sim (row) would include overall difficulty rating (say 1-5), presence or absence of ARS, TORR, types of level crossing, ground frames, number of panels, payware/donationware, suitability for solo player, etc., so the user can see how the overall difficulty rating was derived. 5) The Manuals section should include description and all the other goodies common to other well-written manuals. Maybe there should be a link to a manual template for a dummy sim with a section for each topic of importance, to provide a blueprint for anyone writing the next manual. Of course, if this template is changed, the downside is that existing manuals may need updating! There should be a page named Compiling a sim manual with a link to the dummy template. 6) I've left timetables out of this but there ought to be a difficulty grading for each with corresponding justification as to how it was derived. I'm sure there are other criteria but that's enough for now. If one wanted to search for all sims that were payware, for example, one need only search for 'payware' and press F3 in most browsers to jump to each further instance of the term. Last edited: 24/06/2014 at 08:05 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 08:40 #61962 | |
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Steamer
3921 posts
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" said:I don't think a mere description of each Sim is needed. Leave this for each sim's manual.I did think of creating one of these, but I wasn't sure how 'reader-friendly' such a chart would be. In order to fit it to the width of a page, abbreviations would need to be used, resulting in something like this: [table] [tr] [td]Sim[/td] [td]Pax[/td] [td]Frgt[/td] [td]layout[/td] [td]£[/td] [td]ARS[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Lime St.[/td] [td]M[/td] [td]N/A[/td] [td]M/L[/td] [td]N[/td] [td]N[/td] [/tr] [/table] Along with any other categories you wished to have. By comparison, the equivalent page for Lime Street contains much the same information, but with space to spread out a bit and include a qualitative description. It also features an image, to allow users to judge the area for themselves. For instance, I'd consider two CCTV LCs at the extreme ends of the sim to be more difficult than two next to each other in the middle- but just writing 2 LCs doesn't give you this detail. Quote: 5) The Manuals section should include description and all the other goodies common to other well-written manuals. Maybe there should be a link to a manual template for a dummy sim with a section for each topic of importance, to provide a blueprint for anyone writing the next manual. Of course, if this template is changed, the downside is that existing manuals may need updating! There should be a page named Compiling a sim manual with a link to the dummy template.The developers write the manual initially, and they are pretty good at knowing what needs to be included- the beauty of the Wiki being that anyone can add to it. A common template is good in theory, but in reality simulations like Wolverhampton don't really need a multi-paged manual like Exeter- there's just not as much going on in them. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 24/06/2014 at 08:40 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 09:28 #61964 | |
Peter Bennet
5358 posts
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Does this page help, does it need extra columns? I tried to follow the same basic format for all the McSims. Looking at them I wonder if the "overview" page is where you could insert the details for these summary pages? So it's within the structure. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 24/06/2014 at 09:28 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 10:39 #61968 | |
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49.123
2 posts |
" said:Perhaps the 'Available simulations' page could be re-organised so that, instead of simulations being sorted by Region they're placed under the headings: 'Beginner', 'Intermediate', 'Pro' and 'ARS'? Actually, that's a great idea. It will certainly be very helpful to future newcomers. Now, in response to Max: Your suggestion of putting wiki links in the Downloads section does have merit, but I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with the rest of your post. I don't think that having lots of ratings or a big data table is the solution. First of all ratings tend to be subjective and will be hard to apply consistently. We do have ratings on current Simulations Available pages, but I don't consider them to be very useful: Lancing is rated with an overall difficulty of medium, so is Peterborough! I think most people would certainly consider the latter to be much more difficult? Sure, we could develop a more objective way of rating simulations, but is it worth the work? What I find most helpful are tips such as "Ideal for 1-person operation" (Lime Street), "Suitable for one experienced player" (Euston), and "Really needs at least three people to share the workload, can allow 5 or 6 to join in" (King's Cross). These suggestions are not easily replicated in a table format, nor can a rating (which is just a number) convey the same information. By reading Euston's page I learn that the sim is all about controlling a busy London terminus, or when I read Lancing's summary, I learn that the point of this sim is to control level crossings. Such information is much more important than a rating of 1/2/3/4/5, or a matrix explaining that Lancing has 1 panel, 4 CCTV crossings, 1 ground frame, no ARS, and so on. Besides, we already have a table with some of these data (here), and it's quite a big table that's not so easy to use, mainly because it has so many columns — and Max proposes that having another mega-table would somehow help newcomers. To be honest, I think the solution is quite simple: sort the sims according to difficulty as Steamer proposed, then change those pages that need improvement and create pages for sims that are not yet represented. Not really a big change, but I guess having less work to do could also be a good thing. Ratings for individual sims are (in my opinion) not really necessary; categorizing sims as falling under one of three difficulty levels will suffice. When you start giving ratings to sims you'll unavoidably be ranking some sims as easier / more difficult than others, and people will argue on why this sim should be ranked easier, and that sim ranked harder, etc. It will be much easier for us to agree on, for example, that Royston, the Drain, Lancing, Lime Street, and Aston, among others, should go under the "easy" category. Of course, all of the above would mean nothing unless the community agrees on keeping the Simulations Available part of the wiki. Last edited: 24/06/2014 at 10:45 by 49.123 Reason: Minor typo fixing. Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 11:06 #61969 | |
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kbarber
1711 posts |
To my mind, the manual - the detailed 'how to' bits - need to be separated from the additional information. The latter can be made as detailed and rich as the developer and subsequent wiki editors want. (I know not everyone will want to know what branches closed before the date the sim represents, nor how many - and how busy - the manual boxes that were replaced, but it will be of interest to some. Historic service patterns and the process of change that led to the patterns simulated in available timetables might also interest some people. That sort of information might even throw light on some little feature of the sim - perhaps, for example, the reason MGR trains have to reverse in and out of Didcot Power Station.) The important thing is to make it available for people who want it but to keep the manual as 'clean' as possible so it can be referred to quickly during a session. That background information might be better as a third kind of page, with the present 'simulation' page being (in effect) the sales pitch. Finally, it might be extremely useful to have yet a fourth kind of page for 'working instructions'. That would include (where they can be ascertained and where copyright issues don't intervene) such things as Sectional Appendix entries affecting the sim, Signalbox Special Instructions and the like. That would be part of 'learning the job', the kind of thing professionals would need to become familiar with as part of the process of learning a new box (they generally include such things as limits on the use of facilities that exist, or authorities (relaxations) of the usual rules). Obviously this requires a lot of input so I imagine many of these pages will be unpopulated for some while. It also needs a good deal of discipline on the part of editors, partly to ensure their contribution ends up on the right page but more particularly to ensure the 'manual' pages are kept accurate, up-to-date and 'clean' My twopenn'orth, be interested to hear other opinions. Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 11:09 #61970 | |
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whitetigger
25 posts |
Just to throw my two cents into the ring, I think that a basic table like Steamer mocked up for Lime Street would be good to have on a main page somewhere, but we don't need another big table like Peter linked to (although you could link through to that one if it was condensed down slightly). I also like categorising the sims based on difficulty, so that new players can know which sims they should be able to handle or to challenge themselves with. But back to the Wiki issue, I think that properties pages are great for the products section, but have no place in the Wiki - the wiki should be space to provide the manuals for the sims and that is all. Background history, etc shouldn't be in there and if it is, should have it's own separate place. Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 11:31 #61972 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
The reason having a "difficulty rating" level for each sim is that it allows users to search faster for one that matches their desires. Instead of a difficulty rating we could have a difficulty range, which reflects the opinions of a greater number of people. Of course, the difficulty is also proportional to that of the timetable used, so any rating or range should be based on the default TT accompanying the sim, as this is the one most beginners would be expected to use. I'm not that fond of a table either as these can be more difficult to edit for those not used to the Wiki. A simple vertical list of attributes would do just as well, provided this format was adhered to for all sims. Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 11:41 #61974 | |
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Steamer
3921 posts
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" said:Does this page help, does it need extra columns?Personally, I think that table should be kept as it is, because it mainly relates to the 'Software' side of things as opposed to the 'Playing' side. I don't think it's a good idea to mix two different sets of properties together. " said: We do have ratings on current Simulations Available pages, but I don't consider them to be very useful: Lancing is rated with an overall difficulty of medium, so is Peterborough!I'll correct that! Quote: Of course, all of the above would mean nothing unless the community agrees on keeping the Simulations Available part of the wiki.It's fairly safe to say that these pages will be kept on in some form- although whether they move to the 'Products' page within the main website is worth discussion. kbarber said: My twopenn'orth, be interested to hear other opinions.I agree that non-operating information (with the exception of a brief introduction to the area) should be separate from operating information. To avoid more sprawling sections though, I think any additional information should be kept within the main manual structure (i.e. simulations:[sim name]:[page name]) and linked to from the Reference Section at the end of each manual- this should make it clear that the information on the page is of interest and relevance, but doesn't have to be ploughed through to operate the simulation. EDIT TO INCLUDE MAX'S POST: " said: The reason having a "difficulty rating" level for each sim is that it allows users to search faster for one that matches their desires.Hence the suggestion above about altering the 'Available Simulations' page so that simulations are under the headings 'Beginner' 'Intermediate' 'Pro' and 'ARS'. That's probably the most we can get consensus on- any further sub categories or numbers just invites subjectivity. END EDIT Thanks for all the comments and suggestions so far- we need more threads like this! "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 24/06/2014 at 11:46 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 13:08 #61979 | |
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LucasLCC
94 posts |
" said:Perhaps the 'Available simulations' page could be re-organised so that, instead of simulations being sorted by Region they're placed under the headings: 'Beginner', 'Intermediate', 'Pro' and 'ARS'?Whilst I don't disagree with doing this, there is the issue that what one person thinks is a challenging sim is classed as a dead easy sim by another.. Another note is that the difficulty largely depends on the timetable in question. Oxted with 99999 trains would be a lot harder than a Kings Cross with just 1 train (for example). If I was doing it, then I'd possibly do something like this: Loader Sims: [table] [tr] [td]Name[/td] [td]Version[/td] [td]Payware[/td] [td]Passenger[/td] [td]Freight[/td] [td]TORR[/td] [td]ARS[/td] [td]Absolute Block[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Exeter[/td] [td]V99999[/td] [td]No[/td] [td]Med[/td] [td]Low[/td] [td]Yes[/td] [td]No[/td] [td]No[/td] [/tr] [/table] Then repeat for Scrolly and Paged sims. It provides a decent enough overview to be able to make a decision of what sim to play. Lucas Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 13:43 #61980 | |
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Steamer
3921 posts
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Perhaps a compromise would be to have both: Separate pages and, at the bottom of the contents page, tabulated data for those who prefer it. Once a page has been written for every simulation adding the data to a table shouldn't be too difficult. " said: Another note is that the difficulty largely depends on the timetable in question. Oxted with 99999 trains would be a lot harder than a Kings Cross with just 1 train (for example).To enable fair comparison, all ratings would be based on the modern era (if relevant) supplied timetable. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 14:57 #61981 | |
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Peter Bennet
5358 posts
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" said:" said:The relative volumes of traffic is a function of the timetable, not the Sim.Perhaps the 'Available simulations' page could be re-organised so that, instead of simulations being sorted by Region they're placed under the headings: 'Beginner', 'Intermediate', 'Pro' and 'ARS'?Whilst I don't disagree with doing this, there is the issue that what one person thinks is a challenging sim is classed as a dead easy sim by another.. Another note is that the difficulty largely depends on the timetable in question. Oxted with 99999 trains would be a lot harder than a Kings Cross with just 1 train (for example). Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 15:31 #61983 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
I know it's not very practicable, but the concept put forward by 49.123 where a sim is followed by a short description (which would reflect difficulty) So for example: Lime St (Passenger terminus, single view) Probably a bit more detailed than that but I don't really know how you'd put it. That would be the best option to help me decide. Terms like "Beginner", "Experienced", "Hard" are basically arbitrary and have no bearing on how difficult I myself might find it. Understanding what I might find would be a much better summary. EDIT: Maybe, if rating Beginner, Amateur, Pro, ARS (etc) is the only way, we could take the objective view of one experienced member of the development team. Last edited: 24/06/2014 at 15:33 by RainbowNines Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 18:37 #61993 | |
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JamesN
1574 posts |
The problem with taking our opinion is that we're all so experienced with running the sims, I'd struggle to define beginner with any degree of confidence, and while I don't like to speak on anyone else's behalf, I'd say the rest of my fellow developers are in the same boat. I do think though that with some cooperation from the community, a general consensus can be reached - after all that is how the previous "Royston is a beginner sim" and so on came about. I'm reasonably confident JamesSim is a nice, easy, 1 man sim - and my testers agree. But we're all experts/professionals and it won't be until it's released and you lot get your hands on it that I can say that with any confidence or put it in the documentation. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 18:57 #61995 | |
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Steamer
3921 posts
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How's this, as a provisional list: Beginner ======== These simulations will almost fit on one screen, and most are manned by one person in real life. While some of them feature some more difficult elements (e.g. Absolute Block on Aston), the size of the simulation means you can focus on them and not be overwhelmed. Fenchurch and Drain are an ideal starting simulation for ARS- if need be you can run the sim manually. Fenchurch, Royston, Aston, Coventry, Lime Street, Wembley Suburban, Wolverhampton, Lancing, Drain, Llangollen. Intermediate ============ The ones in between. These simulations are bigger, but not as big as the 'Pro' simulations. In some cases (North Wales and NEScot) the relatively quiet traffic pattern offsets the larger control area. These be rated Medium/Low, Medium or Medium/High difficulty. Worksop, Cowlairs, Southampton, North Wales Coast, Carlisle, Westbury, Gloucester, Exeter, NLL, Brighton, NEScot, South Humberside, Euston, Victoria LUL. Pro === The hard ones! Cambridge, King's Cross, Birmingham New Street, Saltley, Sheffield, Stafford, Trent, West Hampstead, Central Scotland, Bristol. ARS === In a separate category, because it's hard to judge difficulty with ARS- it very much depends on the confidence of the player (some swear by it, others swear at it) and the likelihood of ARS messing it up. Liverpool Street, Peterborough, Marylebone, Edinburgh, Motherwell, Victoria South Eastern, Victoria Central, Swindon A&B As an aside, it's very good to see that Payware/Donationware is split quite nicely across the categories. At the end of the day, they are merely a starting point for someone looking for a simulation to play- there's no set play order, and there's nothing to stop someone looking through all the pages. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 19:54 #61996 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
You're missing Waterloo. It's an ARS sim - if I had to categorise it I'd call it Intermediate when played without ARS - it's actually surprisingly straightforward. Also, I'm not sure I'd agree with some of your categorisations. I wouldn't class North Wales Coast as the same difficulty as say, Euston, for example, and I wouldn't class Bristol and Cambridge with King's Cross. Maybe it's a good compromise, though, since I'm not sure how I'd fix it without a new category ;). Log in to reply |
| Wiki pages- voice your opinion! 24/06/2014 at 19:55 #61997 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2023 posts |
There is always room for people to learn and improve, no matter what perceptions they or anyone else has about their own skill.
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