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| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 13:17 #62083 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Typical scenario: Train is at platform, expected departure in 10 mins. Route ahead (on main line) already set. To expedite matters I use Train List > Signalling options > Shunt forward. Train begins to move and rapidly picks up speed way beyond maximum shunt speed (15 mph). I can't understand why this command is titled Shunt forward and not Move forward or simply Proceed. Shunt forward conveys the wrong impression to me, namely that the driver is allowed to move forward but may not exceed the shunt speed limit. Surely his speed is governed by the route set for him ahead and whether this involves shunting operations via a shunt (ground) signal. Moreover, since his direction (the way he faces) is already established, there seems no need for the word forward either. I wonder how many other newcomers to SimSig feel intimidated by this command when what they are really looking for is Move forward. Is there any good reason to retain this wording? Just wondering. Last edited: 26/06/2014 at 13:17 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 13:40 #62084 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2028 posts 
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He can only proceed cautiously until he sees the aspect of the next signal anyway, hence the shunt speeds. The command was primarily intended to be used for things like moving a train from one end of a platform to the other, or similar things with sidings, not to run trains over long distances, hence "shunt". Log in to reply |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 14:05 #62087 | |
flabberdacks
582 posts |
'Shunt', in this context, means to me 'proceed at restricted speed so as to be able to stop short of any obstructions or limit of authority, and obey the next indication'. What your train has seen is to shunt ahead beyond the platform it's waiting at, and it has then obeyed the indication it sees, presumably a full green. It's better to teach people the various contexts behind the word 'shunt', I think. Also, what you're trying to do there (tell a driver to depart early and proceed at track speed) is not shunting at all - a better way to do that is to go to their orders list and set the next timing point, or don't set the route until they're ready to depart. If I've got a freighter, for example, and I'm not sure if it's going to pull up at a platform and just stop and go in 1 minute (quick crew change?) or wait time for its tabled path, I won't give it the road and will use the train list and simply wait until it says it's ready to depart or waiting at signal, which I take as the train having contacted me and informed me that they are ready to depart. Log in to reply |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 14:05 #62088 | |
postal
5195 posts |
" said:Typical scenario: Train is at platform, expected departure in 10 mins. Route ahead (on main line) already set. To expedite matters I use Train List > Signalling options > Shunt forward. Train begins to move and rapidly picks up speed way beyond maximum shunt speed (15 mph).Brings the obvious question about why? If it is a passenger train (and not marked as set-down only) then it has no business in moving before due time so there is nothing to be gained by expediting things - unless you are just playing trains and the TT is a minor inconvenience. If it is marked as set-down only or is another class of train which may leave before due time then it will make its own way under clear signals anyway. If it is a train which is of a classification which may depart before due time but it seems to be sitting for that due time and you want to get it on its way then you should advance the TT or abandon the TT, reinstating it once the train has left the station. The shunt forward move is meant to do what it says on the tin, not act as a surrogate for a main line movement. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: CTCThiago, TimTamToe, peterb |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 14:22 #62092 | |
CTCThiago
232 posts |
" said:Typical scenario: Train is at platform, expected departure in 10 mins. Route ahead (on main line) already set. To expedite matters I use Train List > Signalling options > Shunt forward. Train begins to move and rapidly picks up speed way beyond maximum shunt speed (15 mph).Max, To avoid that, instead of use: Train List > Signalling options > Shunt forward you can use: Train List > Right click on Timetable options > Edit timetable > Location List tab > "Train location" > Edit > click on Set down only box > and confirm the change After a time, when simulating, i stopped to use shunt forward for not "shunt movements", i use "Set down only" and edit the timetable times as fits me (and the driver) better on the specific train. Thiago. Last edited: 26/06/2014 at 14:23 by CTCThiago Log in to reply |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 14:34 #62095 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
flabberdacks wrote: Quote: Also, what you're trying to do there (tell a driver to depart early and proceed at track speed) is not shunting at all - a better way to do that is to go to their orders list and set the next timing point, or don't set the route until they're ready to depart.Yes, I was trying to tell the driver to depart early, the reason being that there was another train behind him waiting to move into his spot. So I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I wait till his due departure time, the train behind him is delayed. If I tell him to depart early, I'm fiddling with the timetable. and BTW postal, I'm not just "playing trains" - I'm mindful of the TT and trying to take up the slack here and there. When you said "set the next timing point", did you mean "advance the departure time from his present location" (as postal suggested) or advance the arrival time of his next timing point? Thanks CTCThiago, I'll try "Set down only box" and see whether it works for me. Last edited: 26/06/2014 at 14:35 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 14:46 #62097 | |
lazzer
605 posts |
" said:Yes, I was trying to tell the driver to depart early, the reason being that there was another train behind him waiting to move into his spot.So never mind the passengers who arrive on the platform to find their train left ten minutes before time! If you did that in real life you'd find yourself in the office, explaining your actions to the boss. If you've got a delayed train behind, then tough - it will have to stay late. There's only so much you can do to get time back, but telling a driver to depart TEN minute early is frankly ridiculous. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: DriverCurran |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 14:48 #62098 | |
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peterb
451 posts |
" said:Yes, I was trying to tell the driver to depart early, the reason being that there was another train behind him waiting to move into his spot. So I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I wait till his due departure time, the train behind him is delayed. If I tell him to depart early, I'm fiddling with the timetable.This happens a lot in reality, and unless there's a way of preventing this by regulating the traffic such as at multi-platform stations eg St Davids, real signallers who aren't 'playing trains' have no other option to delay the following train. Forcing a passenger train to run early just because it'll delay a following train does not happen in this country. In any case, by using 'shunt forward' here, you're not using for the purpose for which it was intended. The correct method would be as postal and others suggested, to reset the next location of the train on F2. Using 'shunt forward' would not step the timetable up, so it sounds like this is what's happened in your 2F30 scenario - you shunted the train forward at your convenience but failed to readjust the timetable. Log in to reply |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 14:57 #62101 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
lazzer wrote: Quote: So never mind the passengers who arrive on the platform to find their train left ten minutes before time! If you did that in real life you'd find yourself in the office, explaining your actions to the boss.Oh I'm just following local practice. ;) Quote: The correct method would be as postal and others suggested, to reset the next location of the train on F2. Please explain this more clearly - did you mean advance the time of arrival of the train at the next timing point (location)? Log in to reply |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 15:06 #62102 | |
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peterb
451 posts |
" said:Please explain this more clearly - did you mean advance the time of arrival of the train at the next timing point (location)?I'm not quite sure what you mean here but it's definitely not what I'm talking about. If you've got a train travelling from Torquay towards Torre, for example, Torre should be the first location listed when you click on the timetable. The first location listed is the one which the train is expecting to stop or pass first. In the example of 2F30, Dawlish was listed first so it is expecting to stop there next, and will continue until it reaches Dawlish. To set the next location: 1. F2 -> edit timetable of the train in question. 2. Click the location the train will reach next, or is currently at. 3. Click 'Set current/next location' 4. Click OK. This is also known as 'stepping up'. For a train travelling from Torquay to Torre, you would complete this process to ensure the train stops there if it hasn't stepped up automatically (for example, if you used 'shunt forward' to force it to leave Torquay). If you wanted to force a train to leave a station, you should use this process and select the next location. There's no need to touch any of the arrival or departure times for any locations. Last edited: 26/06/2014 at 15:07 by peterb Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 23:12 #62134 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
peterb wrote in post #8: Quote: In any case, by using 'shunt forward' here, you're not using for the purpose for which it was intended. The correct method would be as postal and others suggested, to reset the next location of the train on F2. Using 'shunt forward' would not step the timetable up (my emphasis), so it sounds like this is what's happened in your 2F30 scenario - you shunted the train forward at your convenience but failed to readjust the timetable.If true, this adds a new caveat to the use of Shunt forward. In fact, it implies that one should not use this command for anything other than joining two trains already sharing the same platform, as it would muck up stepping along the Location List, right? It also means that shunting forward should not be used for runarounds as these also rely on reversing timing points as specified in the runaround loco's Location List. Up till now I have used Shunt forward whenever I wanted to move a train that didn't want to move for some reason. It hasn't caused me much trouble and, combined with Reverse direction, has usually ensured the train ends up in the desired location. Now, it seems, I should be extremely wary of using it in case the train fails to step up the Location List at the next timing point, right? Can I, in fact, trust the timing point list as displayed in Show Timetable after using Shunt forward, without going into the TT editor and resetting the next timing point? Not being facetious here, merely cautious. Log in to reply |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 23:38 #62137 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
Shunt forwards is pretty much mostly useful for moving a train stopped at one end of the platform to the other end, or a few other similar tasks and shouldn't really be used for getting trains to depart early. This won't in most cases involve requiring the timetable to step up.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 26/06/2014 at 23:44 #62138 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
By using "Shunt Forward" the train will move but not change timetabled location. By editing the timetable to select a new "Current/Next Location", a train will start to move towards that new location. EDIT: The train may not move in the correct direction after Set Current/Next Location", if the train hasn't had a chance to stop at its reversing location. This is when "Reverse Train" should be used in addition. And again, I believe that "Reverse Train" does *NOT* affect the timetabled location. Last edited: 26/06/2014 at 23:47 by mfcooper Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 29/06/2014 at 20:34 #62266 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:By using "Shunt Forward" the train will move but not change timetabled location.I don't know where this idea comes from. The "Shunt Forward" option puts the train in motion, exactly as if it had just passed a signal showing a shunting aspect (and it will obey the same speed restrictions). Once it's in motion, the code that "ticks off" timetable locations will work in just the same way as if the train had started for any other reason. Quote: That, I believe, is simply that the train will no longer be waiting for the booked departure time because it's not yet at its "current" location. Quote: It doesn't. It reverses the train, cancels any outstanding phone calls, and then puts the train in motion exactly as "Shunt Forward" does. Reversing could alter the train's subsequent detection of its location, because locations are direction-sensitive. (E.g. if a location is programmed for each track at a simple two-track station in the most obvious way, a train proceeding "wrong line" won't detect the station. If the location is programmed bidirectionally, however, it will do.) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: CTCThiago |
| Why "Shunt forward" and not "Move forward" or "Proceed"? 29/06/2014 at 21:22 #62272 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
I would've thought it's all pretty simple - if a train is moving and reaches a timetable point that matches what it expects the next TT point to be according to its timetable, it will step up. Quite how you get it moving is irrelevant, unless you abandon TT, in which case timing points are somewhat unimportant! There's a few isolated cases where valid diversionary routes are coded to work without stepping TTs up, but I think that's about the only time that TT stepping doesn't work in the "normal" way. Log in to reply |