How realistic is it for drivers to be told of amented TTs?

I would be told to set back and take the correct route via Westbury. The reason being that going via Bristol adds at least 25 to 30 minutes to the journey time, so I would be late into Reading.

" said:

I would be told to set back and take the correct route via Westbury. The reason being that going via Bristol adds at least 25 to 30 minutes to the journey time, so I would be late into Reading.

Well I'd have thought you'd still be late into Reading due to having to set back, how long would it take to set back (from the time the order was given to starting again via the booked route)?

If theyr really wanted to send me up to Bristol they could get me as far as Chippenham and ask me to reverse there, taking the Melksham branch to Westbury.

" said:

" said:

for the non-stop journeys TAU to RDG, our diagrams actually show that we are booked to go via Westbury. Therefore that is the way I expect to go. I would not be popular if I simply accepted the wrong route at Cogload and kept going.

I was not asking if you should accept the incorret route (which as you say you should not) but actually if you would you always be required to set back and go via Castle Cary after stopping and querying it route or could you be told to continue via Bristol.

I would be told to set back and take the correct route via Westbury. The reason being that going via Bristol adds at least 25 to 30 minutes to the journey time, so I would be late into Reading.

I don't buy that in this risk averse railway world that you'd be told to set back doing an unsignalled move, rather than simply continuing on to Westbury via Bristol. Especially if you sign the road!

Wouldn't they just send you direct from Bathampton Junction to Trowbridge rather than getting you to reverse at Chippenham?

I don't buy that in this risk averse railway world that you'd be told to set back doing an unsignalled move, rather than simply continuing on to Westbury via Bristol. Especially if you sign the road!

" said:

I don't buy that in this risk averse railway world that you'd be told to set back doing an unsignalled move, rather than simply continuing on to Westbury via Bristol. Especially if you sign the road!

Simsig - home of the armchair train driver.

" said:

If the train was booked non-stop to Reading via Castle Cary would it always be required to set back and take the booked route or could it be allowed to continue via Bristol?

Our trains regularly run non-stop Taunton to Reading, but the booked route is always via Westbury. So if I came round the corner and saw a green aspect with no junction indicator I would still slam the brake in and query it. This is one location where we simply can't accept either route, as there is the issue of timings and paths to consider. I would only accept the route for Bristol if I was previously told by the signaller and control that I was being sent that way.

Edit: for the non-stop journeys TAU to RDG, our diagrams actually show that we are booked to go via Westbury. Therefore that is the way I expect to go. I would not be popular if I simply accepted the wrong route at Cogload and kept going.

" said:

" said:

I don't buy that in this risk averse railway world that you'd be told to set back doing an unsignalled move, rather than simply continuing on to Westbury via Bristol. Especially if you sign the road!

Simsig - home of the armchair train driver.

I'm actually qualified to drive trains thanks, albeit not on the mainline.

Well you've said yourself we'd need someone to have taken the wrong route to know what control would do. So you are only expressing an opinion, as am I.

The situation is fairly unique with no booked calls in between, and the driver signing both routes. Can you imagine the backlash if there was an incident when setting back in those circumstances.

Ideally railway signals should be well placed and visible from some ways off and drivers should be expecting to see them. Even if that all fails AWS is on hand to provide all sorts of warning cues until the train is back on the green.

However all that can be undermined by the British railway system failing to address the "riding the yellows" problem where trains run at high speed under both double and single yellow aspects and rely on drivers to spot signals at danger in time to stop short of them. Requiring some sort of minimal train control like a brake application or speed restriction to ~45mph would make driver attention less critical and would work with the existing AWS technology.

" said:

Ideally railway signals should be well placed and visible from some ways off and drivers should be expecting to see them. Even if that all fails AWS is on hand to provide all sorts of warning cues until the train is back on the green.

However all that can be undermined by the British railway system failing to address the "riding the yellows" problem where trains run at high speed under both double and single yellow aspects and rely on drivers to spot signals at danger in time to stop short of them. Requiring some sort of minimal train control like a brake application or speed restriction to ~45mph would make driver attention less critical and would work with the existing AWS technology.

I don't think I've ever seen UK drivers 'riding the yellows' in this way and I don't believe they would ever do so. Yes, they do take double yellows as a clear(ish) signal if working a suburban train with short stopping distances but they usually also ease off so their train (hopefully) drops further back and starts getting greens. Remember our signal spacing tends to be closer than US practice so it's common (albeit not universal) to be able to see the next signal step up and regulate speed accordingly. (In some cases spacing is such that the whole R-Y-YY-G sequence can be seen. In fact there were some places where the combination of spacing and line speed required multiple double yellows and I have personally seen G-train-R-Y-YY-YY-YY-G! On that occasion, on the front end of a heavy Freightliner, we got away from a junction on a yellow and the driver then eased the power on nice and gently so we were able to see the sequence stretching out until finally we got a green.)

It's also true to say that, unless they are getting away from a signal at a junction, a driver getting a single yellow will invariably slow down a long way until they see the next signal ahead offering better than red.

Actually I wonder if long siganl spacing itself is a feature that encourages 'riding the yellows'?

Actually I wonder if long siganl spacing itself is a feature that encourages 'riding the yellows'?

" said:

" said:

I would be told to set back and take the correct route via Westbury. The reason being that going via Bristol adds at least 25 to 30 minutes to the journey time, so I would be late into Reading.

Well I'd have thought you'd still be late into Reading due to having to set back, how long would it take to set back (from the time the order was given to starting again via the booked route)?

OK, let's work it out.

Time from seeing the signal to stopping - around 45 seconds (let's round it up to one minute).
Time to call signaller and control and inform of wrong route, and request permission to set back - between two and five minutes
Time to shut down and change ends (HST) - seven minutes
Time to set back to behind signal - two to three minutes
Time to change ends again - seven minutes

TOTAL - 20 to 25 minutes

Now on that basis you may say, "why not just carry on and go via Bristol?" The main reason is pathing - I'll get in the way of all sorts of other trains, and be further delayed myself by others. There is ONE partial solution I just thought of. If theyr really wanted to send me up to Bristol they could get me as far as Chippenham and ask me to reverse there, taking the Melksham branch to Westbury.

I suppose it's going to require someone to actually get a wrong route there to find out what control decide to do ...

It's also true to say that, unless they are getting away from a signal at a junction, a driver getting a single yellow will invariably slow down a long way until they see the next signal ahead offering better than red.

" said:

It's also true to say that, unless they are getting away from a signal at a junction, a driver getting a single yellow will invariably slow down a long way until they see the next signal ahead offering better than red.

I suspect it's also common for drivers stood at a red, if it clears to a yellow, to deliberately wait a little more to see if it clears to green.

I as in KX box recently as a guest of FCC and we were discussing the contentious issue of regulation at Woolmer Green, the signaller explained how the different TOC drivers behaved and one issue they had was EC drivers waiting for better than Y before beginning to move so they got a clear(ish) run, which is one reason EC train tended to get more priority than they probably should, if they did not then it'd make matters worse.

Peter