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| Replacing Signals 02/09/2015 at 12:56 #75588 | |
Giantray
332 posts |
Can we have a means to contact a Train Driver to advise him we are going to replace a signal to Danger. This would be prototypical, as it is a Rule Book requirement to contact a Driver if it is necessary to give the Driver a change of signal aspect. This would help in the sim and prevent any further delay caused by a Driver having to contact his Control before proceeding after a change of aspect, which isn't prototypical.
Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution.. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Coolah |
| Replacing Signals 02/09/2015 at 13:34 #75590 | |
Steamer
3925 posts |
It's been requested several times in the past, hopefully it will be implemented at some point. A work around is to pause the simulation, open F2, reverse the train's direction and then cancel the route. Unpause, and reverse the train again so it's pointing the right way- this may happen automatically if it's stopped at a station with a signal at each end of the platform. This prevents the ACOA penalty. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 02/09/2015 at 16:40 #75598 | |
flabberdacks
582 posts |
I've seen many a discussion on expanding the range of interactions with drivers. This is a popular request, as well as "Thankyou driver, wait at signal and don't call me ever again" which I would love to have during major disruptions when trains are stacking up. I suppose a major roadblock for this would be calling the driver when they are in motion, and the response then required from the driver. I believe all current calls initiated by train drivers happen after they bring the train to a stand first. In this case, you may need to tell the driver that an aspect change is coming, which means the driver would need to slow down *after* the call. Also need to take into account returning a signal to danger when the train is directly approaching it - commonsense would indicate you would wait for the driver to first confirm they are at a stand before replacing the signal, else you risk a SPAD. I don't believe the current 'one call, one response, hang up' telephone call system in SimSig is able to handle that, and would need an overhaul first. One possibility could be adding an option to the 'Signalling' list in F2 which prompts the driver to bring their train safely to a stand and *then* initiate a call, with the signaller's response being "wait 2 minutes for aspect change then continue as timetabled". When done this way, instead of reporting an ACOA as soon as the aspect is changed, the sim could use that ACOA trigger as the driver seeing the aspect change and then beginning to move again in response to it. Disclaimer: I am not a developer and have literally no clue if the above is possible! :silly: Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 02/09/2015 at 17:13 #75603 | |
madaboutrains
308 posts |
To cheat the Timing-out I fail the lamp proving then I select the hold at red. Then I put everything back and no timing-out signal! 
RIP Feltham Panel 1 Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 02/09/2015 at 18:56 #75605 | |
Stephen Fulcher
2028 posts |
That wouldn't work in reality, and is a bit naughty in SimSig. If the signal ever showed a proceed aspect it would be approach locked until either a train passed or it timed out, irrespective of the aspect it was showing when the route was cancelled. Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 02/09/2015 at 20:18 #75609 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
What you want is a SimSig version of the "Contact signaller" text message which can be sent from the signaller's GSM-R fixed terminal (and CSR before it).
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| Replacing Signals 02/09/2015 at 20:42 #75610 | |
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J5flyer
48 posts |
Hello, Something that may fit in better with SimSig's current system is maybe add a few stations to the 'phonebook' that you can call up, like you can with some depots/yards in some sims to request permission to send a train. For example on the Brighton sim, maybe you could have the options to call Brighton, Haywards Heath and Hove (as they are the main terminus/regulation point stations) and request the station staff to go and ask the driver of <HeadCode> if it's ok to return the signal to danger. Then perhaps they can call you back a minute or two later (with a bit of randomisation in the time) to say that the driver has given the all clear to return the signal. This would only work of course if the train is stationary in the platform! Otherwise the 'I don't know anything about this train!' message or similar might be appropriate! Just a thought considering how the current SimSig phone system works. I have no idea how easy/hard this would be to implement - but hopefully it will spark further ideas until GSMR can be realistically simulated and would help those who manage to pull off way too early for a departure! James Last edited: 02/09/2015 at 20:48 by J5flyer Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 02/09/2015 at 21:40 #75612 | |
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GW43125
495 posts |
One thing I've been thinking is could we possibly have a button on the trainlist to initiate a controlled stop? This would help me to simulate some situations and could also help with the ACOA issue by stopping them then allowing a call. Just a thought. Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 04/09/2015 at 21:25 #75637 | |
GeoffM
6288 posts |
" said:Can we have a means to contact a Train Driver to advise him we are going to replace a signal to Danger. This would be prototypical, as it is a Rule Book requirement to contact a Driver if it is necessary to give the Driver a change of signal aspect.That's not quite true though, is it? Firstly, a signaller will replace a signal to danger in an emergency whether or not the driver can be contacted. Secondly, it's not always possible to contact the driver - especially when simulating older eras. " said: This would help in the sim and prevent any further delay caused by a Driver having to contact his Control before proceeding after a change of aspect, which isn't prototypical.The contacting control feature was added after real life drivers requested it. True, not all drivers feel the urge to contact control in real life, but that would just make the sim too easy. If people are looking for a way to cheat the system - beyond reversing trains and failing lamp proving (which ought to be fixed) - then that's not a feature I want to add. Can any of you explain genuine reasons why a signal should be replaced without penalty in SimSig? SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Stephen Fulcher, postal, AndyG |
| Replacing Signals 04/09/2015 at 22:47 #75638 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2028 posts |
In reality a change of aspect will cause more delay than it does in SimSig whilst the driver rings his Control - in reality a form has to be filed most of the time, and quite often the Signalman and Driver will both phone their Control. Geoff, I have opened a ticket against the workaround madabouttrains has mentioned above. #14136 Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 04/09/2015 at 23:49 #75639 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
A driver does not phone his control if he has a COA. The process is Driver tells Signaller, Signaller tells NR Control, NR Control tells TOC Control. The driver will put a form in at the end of his shift.
Noisynoel Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Giantray, BarryM |
| Replacing Signals 05/09/2015 at 04:51 #75642 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2028 posts |
I've seen trains stood whilst the Driver rings his Control and fills in an irregularity form more than once in the last year. It may not it be mandatory but it does happen. Last edited: 05/09/2015 at 04:52 by Stephen Fulcher Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 05/09/2015 at 07:58 #75643 | |
ozrail
197 posts |
One common problem I used to have was trains standing at green signals without drivers. Mainly at terminal stations, but sometimes when the driver leaves the cab for a toilet break or to look for their relief. It was nice when they told you beforehand, but this is not always possible if the train is due to start from a location and is waiting for a driver. Anyway, I like the way SimSig works now.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Stephen Fulcher |
| Replacing Signals 05/09/2015 at 11:13 #75646 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2028 posts |
Platform staff hitting TRTS without checking first.
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| Replacing Signals 05/09/2015 at 11:28 #75647 | |
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ozrail
197 posts |
The TRTS hasn't worked in Sydney Terminal for years. I was also thinking of the times I would call a driver on the radio only to find out he (or she) wasn't there. Trains commencing from sidings or yards also presented the same problem. The driver cannot tell you the train is delayed if he's not there.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: CTCThiago |
| Replacing Signals 05/09/2015 at 19:19 #75654 | |
CTCThiago
232 posts |
" said:The TRTS hasn't worked in Sydney Terminal for years. I was also thinking of the times I would call a driver on the radio only to find out he (or she) wasn't there. Trains commencing from sidings or yards also presented the same problem. The driver cannot tell you the train is delayed if he's not there.Same here on Rio, at the main terminal (Central), most of the times, the driver walks very slow, with no worries, :whistle: while on the other side, passengers and Signallers, getting upset... :angry: Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 05/09/2015 at 19:45 #75656 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
How often in real life is a delay caused by mis-clicking on a signal at a terminus, ie clicking on the wrong platform, and suddenly locking up half the station throat for an hour? If it's nonzero, surely in situations like that, it's a legitimate reason to call the driver or platform staff and ask if they'll accept an ACOA.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Giantray |
| Replacing Signals 06/09/2015 at 02:53 #75659 | |
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flabberdacks
582 posts |
When performing a shunting move into a location, and the train will stand there for a few minutes before moving off (for example, a dividing move in the Euston backing out roads), and you give them a signal they don't need. The 1980s timetable on the PSB sim uses the backing out roads constantly and it would be wonderful if I could take a signal off a driver that they aren't going to move past for half an hour (but are still looking at). I'm aware that isn't part of the Loader though. Another example is when sending freight through a relief point (such as Wembley) and they decide to stop and wait until their booked time before moving on. Most freighters stop and go at that location, but not all. Again it would be nice to have a function whereby the signaller could come to an agreement with the driver to withdraw the road if their relief crew is not present, as is done at my box in real life Last edited: 06/09/2015 at 02:53 by flabberdacks Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 07/09/2015 at 08:50 #75676 | |
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Giantray
332 posts |
In Simsig, when a signal is replaced to Danger the signal times out. When you decide to set the signal again, maybe many minutes later, the Driver then rings up and reports a change of aspect(COA) and wanting to talk to his control causing a longer delay. Whereas in real-life the Signaller would have spoken to the Driver first before replacing the signal and when clearing the signal again the Driver would just obey it. The Driver would not fill in a form nor contact his Control since there has not been an irregularity in signal aspect as the Signaller had spoken to him before hand. Replacing the Signal to Danger other than in an emergency many include: a) Incorrect route given. The Signaller would attempt to contact the Driver , now via GSM-R message, maybe two of three signal sections before the junction, to replace the signal to start the timeout of the signal. b) Route given would result in train being delayed because of a failed train ahead and an alternative route around the train would be possible.(Multiple line areas, eg Victoria, Kings Cross) c) Route set prematurely for a train not due to depart for sometime. In Simsig, you can replace the signal, but the Driver will ring at departure time when you have re-set the route even though in reality he would not have been on the train when the signal was originally replaced. d) Driver contacts Signaller with a fault on board, but Signaller does not replace the signal because at the time no other train would be affected. However the fault continues for longer than expected and the signal now needs to be replaced. e) Overlooking the time a train stops at a location, eg a freight train waiting relief driver. f) An incident or delay ahead would result in a passenger train being delayed in a tunnel or middle of nowhere. Policy is when there is a delay further ahead, to hold passenger trains in station platforms so passengers can alight and make alternative travel if they wish and are not stuck in the middle of nowhere in a 'sardine can'. Certainly applies to areas like Kings Cross and Victoria. So you may want to replace a signal to hold a train in a station. The Signaller should not receive a penalty for replacing a signal to Danger other than because of wrong route or poor regulation. And if the Signal has been replaced for a legitimate reason and the Driver spoken too, there should not be a further penalty when the signal is cleared again whilst awaiting the Driver to contact his control, because he wouldn't in real-life as he knows the reason beforehand for the COA. Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution.. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: CTCThiago |
| Replacing Signals 07/09/2015 at 09:35 #75677 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
" said:The Signaller should not receive a penalty for replacing a signal to Danger other than because of wrong route or poor regulation.I agree, but strikes me that at the minute the program doesn't define between different reasons for ACOA (except for delays at platforms where you're offered the option to replace - and this is only in some sims is it not?) Last edited: 07/09/2015 at 09:36 by RainbowNines Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 07/09/2015 at 10:05 #75679 | |
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AndyG
1835 posts |
In days of yore (well before loader) there was no penalty for replacing a signal other than delay while the signal was timing out. However this led to many The 'enhancement' introduced was simply a penalty in the form of delaying said train so that the user didn't gain an advantage by replacing the signal regardless. The messages, and 'Driver on telephone' are merely window dressing like all the delayed messages eg 'Police attendance' to ECS or 'wrong trolley' on a LE. Simply get into a good working habit of not route setting until you're sure, don't act in haste and repent at leisure. Two related tips:- 1) If TRTS is provided, it usually pays to wait until it is given in SimSigland; 2) If it's a freight booked at a stop, wait till driver phones waiting at red. In both cases there could be rules holding the train's departure time. If you want to cheat/check, have a sneaky look at the F2 Train List to see if it's RA. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 07/09/2015 at 10:07 by AndyG Reason: typo Log in to reply The following user said thank you: KymriskaDraken |
| Replacing Signals 07/09/2015 at 15:43 #75683 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:In WembleySub, you will get penalized if you *don't* wait for TRTS at some places (it's in the box rules). Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 07/09/2015 at 17:00 #75685 | |
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Steamer
3925 posts |
" said:(except for delays at platforms where you're offered the option to replace - and this is only in some sims is it not?)The driver should give you the option of replacing in all simulations. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 07/09/2015 at 17:38 #75688 | |
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CTCThiago
232 posts |
" said:I've always keep thinking that to myself, but when the station has automatic signals, on the SimSig actual status, i use the pause option (as you can't call the driver to tell him to wait at the platform due to a delayed train ahead, and neither put the signal to danger ((not considering F11)). For sure passengers don't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere. But not all the people think that way. CTC. Log in to reply |
| Replacing Signals 08/09/2015 at 07:56 #75712 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
" said:2) If it's a freight booked at a stop, wait till driver phones waiting at red.This bit always bothered me a bit. When a freight stops somewhere, I don’t really know if it’s planning on sitting there until its booked departure time, or just for a couple of minutes. It would be nice if a driver who’s ready to leave early would phone right away, rather than wasting two minutes before phoning complaining of a red signal. Isn’t that what they’d probably do in real life, if the signaller couldn’t be expected to know the train’s state of readiness? That is, pick up the phone and say “Hey, so-and-so train here, booked for departure at such-and-such time, but I’m ready to go now if you can give me a route”? You already get this in a lot of cases because you get phone calls when trains enter from yards, but that same information is missing if the train happened to already be in-sim and just e.g. waiting in a siding. Log in to reply |