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Replacing Signals

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Replacing Signals 10/09/2015 at 16:19 #75783
Steamer
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3925 posts
" said:
This is a bug. There should be a time delay to simulate the driver closing the cab, walking to the other end, and then opening up.
" said:
#1 certainly could be improved, as could the reporting ACOA at departure time rather than when it happens. As to the rest, well, we'll see whether any would improve realism - maybe a manual reversal should take a couple of minutes for the driver to shut down his cab, walk to the other end, and set up his cab again.
I'm not sure if this is a good idea.

I tend to use the F2 reversal when testing/writing timetables, or to work around simulation/timetable bugs. There are also times when it's necessary to use the feature to extract myself from problems that arise due to SimSig drivers getting themselves into a mess that a real driver wouldn't. In these instances, it's good to have an instant reversal to keep disruption to a minimum, or to solve a problem quickly. Otherwise, you end up with a situation where a train is stopping the job to allow a realistic reversal time, despite the fact that the reason for reversal is unrealistic in the first place.

There's already the option to specify reversing times for timetabled reversals, which I think is a reasonable compromise- when operating the simulation normally, realism is enforced, but the option is available to speed things up when doing 'behind the scenes' jobs.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Replacing Signals 10/09/2015 at 17:27 #75785
Jersey_Mike
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250 posts
" said:

Provided the trainset is still complete, I don't see much of a reason to perform a new brake test - surely if the brakes are working throughout the train from one end, they should work from the other!
There were some accidents related to air brake equipment that had failed between uses. I forget the exact regulations, but when the handles are pulled for more than a short period of time a new brake test has to be performed. A train I was on recently broke down twice in the space of about 40 minutes. After each time rebooting the engine a new brake test had to be performed before departure.


" said:

In the case of (most?) MUs, the driver(s), simply by coupling the trains together with the automatic couplers. Uncoupling is achieved by hitting the uncouple button. No need to hook up any couplers, pipes, or cables. For cases where manual work is required, a shunter would generally be on hand.
It usually helps to have extra eyes when coupling up. In this case the grid cover got stuck and the conductor had to kick at it a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpjeeG9bl6M

" said:

If you build your trains and platforms to the same height, it's a lot less of an issue. Platform/booking office staff would generally be available at busier stations, and disabled passengers are able to book assistance in advance.
I know the UK has high level platforms, but from observation it's not level boarding as there is still a step up. North American 48inch platforms do provide for level boarding, but because many stations have/require low level platforms then the conductor(s) have to work the door traps to change between high and low levels.
Quote:

Why? They have a full-time job as it is. Furthermore, we don't talk to signallers using hand-held radios; the equipment is built into the driving cab. And you'd have to train the conductor on a whole range of stuff to do with safety rules and safe communications.
So? What's wrong with having two rules qualified employees on a single train? Nobody expects a co-pilot on an airplane not to have some experience with flying rules. It also allows you to spend less in other areas such as station staff and wayside infrastructure and makes your rail system more resilient because there is an extra person who can employ manual procedures, such as flagging a defective rail crossing or backing up over a set of trailing points when needing to run against the flow of traffic.

Quote:
It can be the driver, or it can be station staff. (And, yes, it can cause a delay; I had to pull the passcom a few weeks ago because the ordered assistance didn't turn up.)
Does SimSig have handicapped passenger delays? I think I've mentioned it is common practice for crews and signalers in North America to cover up mistakes by claiming delays were caused by handicapped passengers

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Replacing Signals 10/09/2015 at 18:20 #75787
Steamer
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3925 posts
" said:
It usually helps to have extra eyes when coupling up. In this case the grid cover got stuck and the conductor had to kick at it a bit.
Usually, platform staff or the guard will observe and give the driver a thumbs up to save a little bit of time, but I don't think it's an absolute requirement.

Quote:

I know the UK has high level platforms, but from observation it's not level boarding as there is still a step up. North American 48inch platforms do provide for level boarding, but because many stations have/require low level platforms then the conductor(s) have to work the door traps to change between high and low levels.
At larger stations, platform staff place the ramp and help wheelchairs on and off. Where there aren't platform staff, the guard does it. Not sure what happens on DOO trains- I think it's a case of the passenger booking assistance. That said, most stations in DOO areas are staffed in some way (e.g. ticket office) for at least part of the day.

To answer your later question, yes SimSig does simulate this- I think 'Passenger requiring assistance' is the phrase used in the incident report/phone call.

Quote:
Quote:

Why? They have a full-time job as it is. Furthermore, we don't talk to signallers using hand-held radios; the equipment is built into the driving cab. And you'd have to train the conductor on a whole range of stuff to do with safety rules and safe communications.
So? What's wrong with having two rules qualified employees on a single train? Nobody expects a co-pilot on an airplane not to have some experience with flying rules. It also allows you to spend less in other areas such as station staff and wayside infrastructure and makes your rail system more resilient because there is an extra person who can employ manual procedures, such as flagging a defective rail crossing or backing up over a set of trailing points when needing to run against the flow of traffic.
Guards are rules trained. Station staff are needed anyway- they're employed at larger stations where their job is to help passengers with travel questions, assist with train dispatch and other duties, which would need to be done regardless of what on-train staff do.

Using a crossover to run wrong-direction requires Single Line Working to be set up and a pilotman to be provided, which ain't a five minute job. There's not much the guard contributes, or could contribute, in this set-up.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Replacing Signals 10/09/2015 at 21:59 #75798
Danny252
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1461 posts
" said:
" said:
It usually helps to have extra eyes when coupling up. In this case the grid cover got stuck and the conductor had to kick at it a bit.
Usually, platform staff or the guard will observe and give the driver a thumbs up to save a little bit of time, but I don't think it's an absolute requirement.
From having read around, it sounds like someone to help is useful throughout the whole process, but not necessary. Of course, in most situations you'd have the driver of the other portion and platform staff hanging about, as you say.

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Replacing Signals 10/09/2015 at 22:59 #75800
DriverCurran
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683 posts
" said:
" said:
" said:
Reverses seats: what? Seats are fixed things.

I never knew this was a thing either, but someone from Japan introduced me to the concept of reversible seat direction so you're never facing backwards... I think it's mainly done at terminals when the train turns - I'm not sure if seats are free to be moved by passengers during travel... Some modern trains do this automatically.

I understand our Antipodean brethren are also big fans! These ones you can move yourself, clearly!
Regarding changing ends for every backup move, wouldn't that require an extra brake test that not only takes time, but requires a second person to confirm application of the brakes in the rear car? Whenever I am using the "reverse direction" trick to replace a signal in SimSig I usually have in mind an image of the driver just selecting reverse direction in the cab he is in. Especially since the train reverses instantaneously. :whistle:
Right lets get the great great big NO NO out the way first. Drivers will NOT just put a train in reverse and set back. This is very rightly prohibited on safety grounds. There is only one location where a propelling move may under very very strict circumstances may be made that I know of and that is only if at least 4 conditions are met, [1] There must be no other driver available at the location to drive from the LEADING cab, [2] The train must be formed of more than one unit, [3] There is no means to walk through the entire formation [4] The move being made is for shunt purposes only. Now on to the subject of personal brake tests. A driver is required to undertake at the very least a DSD test on each and every time (s)he enters or livens up a driving cab, this is a safety requirement, in addition to this (s)he will on the first time of of working a train undertake a full personal brake test. This will be undertaken from each cab the first time this cab is used.

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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Replacing Signals 11/09/2015 at 10:48 #75810
Muzer
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718 posts
" said:
" said:
" said:
" said:
Reverses seats: what? Seats are fixed things.

I never knew this was a thing either, but someone from Japan introduced me to the concept of reversible seat direction so you're never facing backwards... I think it's mainly done at terminals when the train turns - I'm not sure if seats are free to be moved by passengers during travel... Some modern trains do this automatically.

I understand our Antipodean brethren are also big fans! These ones you can move yourself, clearly!
Regarding changing ends for every backup move, wouldn't that require an extra brake test that not only takes time, but requires a second person to confirm application of the brakes in the rear car? Whenever I am using the "reverse direction" trick to replace a signal in SimSig I usually have in mind an image of the driver just selecting reverse direction in the cab he is in. Especially since the train reverses instantaneously. :whistle:
Right lets get the great great big NO NO out the way first. Drivers will NOT just put a train in reverse and set back. This is very rightly prohibited on safety grounds. There is only one location where a propelling move may under very very strict circumstances may be made that I know of and that is only if at least 4 conditions are met, [1] There must be no other driver available at the location to drive from the LEADING cab, [2] The train must be formed of more than one unit, [3] There is no means to walk through the entire formation [4] The move being made is for shunt purposes only. Now on to the subject of personal brake tests. A driver is required to undertake at the very least a DSD test on each and every time (s)he enters or livens up a driving cab, this is a safety requirement, in addition to this (s)he will on the first time of of working a train undertake a full personal brake test. This will be undertaken from each cab the first time this cab is used.

Paul
I could have sworn ages ago that I read a report about a driver who set back at Andover without authority after having overrun the station (and received, rightly, a rather large bollocking for it!), but I can't now find it. I don't think it would have been a RAIB report as I doubt they would exactly have reported on such a thing, unless it was as part of a larger incident.

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Replacing Signals 11/09/2015 at 11:09 #75811
RainbowNines
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272 posts
There's a video on YouTube of an overrun by an XC train at Tamworth - the driver does bring the train back into the platform (presumably after a chat with the signalman and control), but changed ends to do so.

During that really nasty snap of cold weather in 2009 I saw a broken Pendolino setting back from the Goods Line into the station at Preston - or so I thought. Given that Mr Curran has pointed out its a HUGE no-no (and a single 390 doesn't fulfil the train make-up criteria), I must have been mistaken. What made me think so was the driver didn't switch to the head lights - the red lights were still on. There was also a bloke with his head out of the driver's side window in the rear cab. Probably an innocent explanation, as is so often the case.

Of course this discussion is borne out of the rather naughty little workaround to avoid ACOA penalties on SimSig! I must admit I've done it once or twice on Carlisle when I've realised I'd be crossing up London Road Junction!

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Replacing Signals 11/09/2015 at 11:49 #75812
JamesN
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1577 posts
" said:
There's a video on YouTube of an overrun by an XC train at Tamworth - the driver does bring the train back into the platform (presumably after a chat with the signalman and control), but changed ends to do so.

During that really nasty snap of cold weather in 2009 I saw a broken Pendolino setting back from the Goods Line into the station at Preston - or so I thought. Given that Mr Curran has pointed out its a HUGE no-no (and a single 390 doesn't fulfil the train make-up criteria), I must have been mistaken. What made me think so was the driver didn't switch to the head lights - the red lights were still on. There was also a bloke with his head out of the driver's side window in the rear cab. Probably an innocent explanation, as is so often the case.

Of course this discussion is borne out of the rather naughty little workaround to avoid ACOA penalties on SimSig! I must admit I've done it once or twice on Carlisle when I've realised I'd be crossing up London Road Junction!
I'd take what Mr Curran says with a tiny pinch of salt - he's an employee of but 1 train operator and is rightly very familiar with that operator's rules and restrictions regarding propelling moves - and I don't in any way call into question that those are the rules as far as his employer is concerned. The appendix to the rulebook produced by my employer has a slightly different set of restrictions, and thus by extension I imagine the situation you saw with the Virgin Pendolino was well within Virgin's rules.

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Replacing Signals 11/09/2015 at 12:48 #75813
headshot119
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4869 posts
" said:
" said:
There's a video on YouTube of an overrun by an XC train at Tamworth - the driver does bring the train back into the platform (presumably after a chat with the signalman and control), but changed ends to do so.

During that really nasty snap of cold weather in 2009 I saw a broken Pendolino setting back from the Goods Line into the station at Preston - or so I thought. Given that Mr Curran has pointed out its a HUGE no-no (and a single 390 doesn't fulfil the train make-up criteria), I must have been mistaken. What made me think so was the driver didn't switch to the head lights - the red lights were still on. There was also a bloke with his head out of the driver's side window in the rear cab. Probably an innocent explanation, as is so often the case.

Of course this discussion is borne out of the rather naughty little workaround to avoid ACOA penalties on SimSig! I must admit I've done it once or twice on Carlisle when I've realised I'd be crossing up London Road Junction!
I'd take what Mr Curran says with a tiny pinch of salt - he's an employee of but 1 train operator and is rightly very familiar with that operator's rules and restrictions regarding propelling moves - and I don't in any way call into question that those are the rules as far as his employer is concerned. The appendix to the rulebook produced by my employer has a slightly different set of restrictions, and thus by extension I imagine the situation you saw with the Virgin Pendolino was well within Virgin's rules.
Albeit not on the mainline, but we do have a simulation covering the area so I feel it's valid.

Llangollen Railway has propelling authorised between Corwen East and Carrog using a BSK which has been converted to a PCV (Propelling Control Vehicle). Changing direction at Corwen East takes just as long as putting the locomotive into the opposite direction. The PCV driver will already be ready to go on arrival.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Replacing Signals 12/09/2015 at 10:15 #75842
norman B
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111 posts
Years ago ,as a conductor based at Farnham,we had a couple of turns ,at Wimbledon Depot, when I was required to be in the rear cab and was allowed to control the brake during a propelling move.This move was from the shed to the headshunt and forward to the exit .The driver did not have to change ends.

This sort of move was also allowable in a couple of more locations which I cannot recall.

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Replacing Signals 15/09/2015 at 10:15 #75916
kbarber
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1712 posts
" said:
One common problem I used to have was trains standing at green signals without drivers. Mainly at terminal stations, but sometimes when the driver leaves the cab for a toilet break or to look for their relief. It was nice when they told you beforehand, but this is not always possible if the train is due to start from a location and is waiting for a driver. Anyway, I like the way SimSig works now.

A regular at Enfield Town used to be an illegal changeover - the driver off an incoming train would have swapped part of his turn and it meant he had just 1 or 2 minutes to jump out of the cab and nip to the London end of the adjacent platform. Which was fine until he was a couple of minutes late on the down and was due to arrive on No. 2 platform; there being no TRTS at Enfield in those days the bobby would pull off for the train waiting in No. 1. Eventually, with the incoming train waiting at the signal (and Lincoln Road Level Crossing closed to road) someone would ask the Station Supervisor to see what the problem was, only to be told there was no driver in the cab...

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