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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009

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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 13/02/2016 at 19:12 #80652
Guts
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Any issues with these timetable please use this thread.
Last edited: 13/02/2016 at 19:13 by Guts
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 13/02/2016 at 23:29 #80657
HST125Scorton
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Guts, Thanks for releasing these new timetables. Only one issue whether it was my fault at my end but when loading up Carlisle and using the 2009 timetable only one train was on the screen that was seeded. I checked the timetable by F4 and 90% of the trains were ticked seed while the rest were ok. I've uploaded a screenshot to show.


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Aaron (AJRO)
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 00:20 #80658
Sacro
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Did you release the right version of Carlisle? Timetable notes mention v1-3, however the filename is vPP-09 and the actual timetable is version 0.0.0.

Motherwell has the description ripped from a 2006 WTT, filename states version v4.1.0.4, the actual timetable is version 0.0.0, using it on Motherwell 4.2build3 shows up an incompatible timetable warning (2000s era) and 7 errors, 13 warnings.

It also doesn't follow the required timetable upload rules:

unique and meaningful title
with a brief description;
whether real (with date) or fictional;
whether any era option is required;
the Sim version number it was written on (if known);
Author's name (credits etc. can go in the timetable's internal notes).

Last edited: 14/02/2016 at 00:24 by Sacro
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 02:56 #80660
Guts
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The codes to my knowledge don't define whether it can be played.

TO answer HST's question, the Seeding is random. You get different trains seeded every time you start it.

When I uploaded the timetable I did add a brief description to it that hasn't up loaded.

Motherwell 2009 is the 2006 timetable adapted to allow it to chain to Carlisle. That was the whole point of this timetable.
The Carlisle timetable was added as there are adaptions to the original Carlisle 2009 timetable to make it work for both.

Last edited: 14/02/2016 at 03:03 by Guts
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 03:16 #80661
Guts
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Right there is an issue with seeding.

Open a new start in Carlisle and save the timetable using the same name (overwriting it), then restart and seeding returns to normal

Last edited: 14/02/2016 at 03:19 by Guts
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 11:31 #80665
HST125Scorton
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Thank you for the reply Guts. I started Carlisle fresh with the timetable and re saved it as you mentioned and all the trains now work. Upto 0600 without a hitch so far. I do have an issue with Motherwell's timetable as it comes up with a "Incompatible timetable warning" anyway I tried it for a while and it seems ok running it.
Aaron (AJRO)
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 12:16 #80668
Ray
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As Carlisle is a sim which is not part of the new loader, I was expecting to see two files for the Carlisle timetable 15-10-2009 i.e. WTT and WRT. I only have the WTT file when I downloaded. Can someone explain please ?
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 12:32 #80670
headshot119
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" said:
As Carlisle is a sim which is not part of the new loader, I was expecting to see two files for the Carlisle timetable 15-10-2009 i.e. WTT and WRT. I only have the WTT file when I downloaded. Can someone explain please ?
The WTT that has been released by Guts has been built on a tester version of Carlisle on the loader, and isn't compatible with the public .exe version.

Carlisle throws 166 errors on the .exe version, and most of the rules don't work as they've been built on the loader.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 12:40 #80671
Guts
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You can get around the Rules issue by making a copy of the original 2009 rules file .WTR and copying the new 2009 name in front of it and it then gets recognised when you open the sim
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 12:45 #80672
Sacro
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" said:

Carlisle throws 166 errors on the .exe version, and most of the rules don't work as they've been built on the loader.
Sadly it doesn't work on that either... :doh

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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 14:20 #80675
headshot119
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" said:
You can get around the Rules issue by making a copy of the original 2009 rules file .WTR and copying the new 2009 name in front of it and it then gets recognised when you open the sim
Unfortunately that doesn't resolve a lot of the other errors that then prevent trains from entering Carlisle.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 14:40 #80676
Ray
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Thanks for the explanation. I have more than enough timetables to run as it is, so I will wait for the completed version.
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 18:39 #80679
Danny252
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" said:
The WTT that has been released by Guts has been built on a tester version of Carlisle on the loader, and isn't compatible with the public .exe version.
If only the rules that require the uploader to state in the title the sim version the timetable was written on were followed and/or enforced...

Also, because both were uploaded in a single file, there's now a Carlisle timetable that is only accessible in the Motherwell timetables folder.

Last edited: 14/02/2016 at 18:40 by Danny252
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 14/02/2016 at 19:21 #80681
Peter Bennet
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" said:
" said:
The WTT that has been released by Guts has been built on a tester version of Carlisle on the loader, and isn't compatible with the public .exe version.
If only the rules that require the uploader to state in the title the sim version the timetable was written on were followed and/or enforced...

Also, because both were uploaded in a single file, there's now a Carlisle timetable that is only accessible in the Motherwell timetables folder.
To be honest if the uploader is known to me I tend to authorise as a matter of course: really just on the lookout for rogue files, which are few and far between these days.

I was advised by Geoff that since loader it's not a good idea to add version numbers to the timetable name. I need to fix the instructions on that. You are supposed to do it in the timetable editor.

If people are writing timetables on a test version of a Sim then they really need to check:
a) with the Sim author that it's OK to release
b) Check it validates against the latest public version.

Peter

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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 16/02/2016 at 16:42 #80710
Lyn-Greenwood
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" said:
" said:
" said:
The WTT that has been released by Guts has been built on a tester version of Carlisle on the loader, and isn't compatible with the public .exe version.
If only the rules that require the uploader to state in the title the sim version the timetable was written on were followed and/or enforced...

Also, because both were uploaded in a single file, there's now a Carlisle timetable that is only accessible in the Motherwell timetables folder.
To be honest if the uploader is known to me I tend to authorise as a matter of course: really just on the lookout for rogue files, which are few and far between these days.

I was advised by Geoff that since loader it's not a good idea to add version numbers to the timetable name. I need to fix the instructions on that. You are supposed to do it in the timetable editor.

If people are writing timetables on a test version of a Sim then they really need to check:
a) with the Sim author that it's OK to release
b) Check it validates against the latest public version.

Peter
I know why Geoff doesn't like version nos. in timetable names, but prefers us to use the Editor's Major/Minor version nos. instead. However, this wouldn't allow a user to easily see which versions of timetables he has in his Timetables folders unless he loads the sim & timetable or opens the raw XML timetable file and has a look at the timetable header.

I'd like to suggest a compromise. When a timetable is saved by the editor, the 'Timetable Name' field in the timetable General tab is used as the default filename, so how about the editor adding the Major/Minor version nos. (if they are non-zero) to the end of this filename? This way, users can see at a glance which version of a given timetable they have and only download newer versions.

I have to say that some of the timetable names I've seen in the User Download area leave a lot to be desired, and putting a timetable for one sim in the .ZIP file of another sim just seems illogical to me.

I believe a lot of recent problems that have been aired in the Forum recently boil down to poor quality control, so maybe it's time for the Moderators to be a little more strict with their approvals of timetables (naming, description, etc.) and for new sims to be more rigorously tested, perhaps by an independent team of testers following final testing by the Developer's test team?

I'd like to see comments from other members of the community, so please fire away.

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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 16/02/2016 at 21:27 #80713
Peter Bennet
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The numbering thing is to do with the updating - you can only auto-update a timetable if the name is identical and with added version numbers they are axiomatically not identical. Perhaps not as critical for user uploaded as for those accompanying Sims.

I for one do not wish to take responsibility for testing user uploaded timetables before approval.

If a group want to set themselves up as timetable validators I'm sure that will be acceptable and I'm sure we can come to some arrangement over an approval process so the person approving release knows they have been through the group.


Peter

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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 16/02/2016 at 23:11 #80716
Lyn-Greenwood
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" said:
The numbering thing is to do with the updating - you can only auto-update a timetable if the name is identical and with added version numbers they are axiomatically not identical. Perhaps not as critical for user uploaded as for those accompanying Sims.

I for one do not wish to take responsibility for testing user uploaded timetables before approval.

If a group want to set themselves up as timetable validators I'm sure that will be acceptable and I'm sure we can come to some arrangement over an approval process so the person approving release knows they have been through the group.


Peter
I've obviously not explained things very well, Peter, so I'll try and elaborate.

1. Auto-updating: let's take as an example the Exeter Summer 2006 timetable which is distributed with the Exeter sim. The current version is Major=5, Minor=0, so if the timetable editor created the timetable file as "Exeter Summer 2006 (v5.0)" and this was installed on a User's PC, then the auto-updater (Refresher) could construct the filename to look for from the base name (Exeter Summer 2006) and the Major/Minor nos. (5.0) i.e. it looks for "Exeter Summer 2006 (v5.0)" and if this file exists, then no update is needed. Now let's say the timetable is modified and is allocated version nos. Major=5, Minor=1. The editor will save this to disk as "Exeter Summer 2006 (v5.1)", so when the auto-updater checks for this file on the User's PC, it won't find it and will download the new version, thus preserving the User's original version, which he might have modified in some way. I know this method will require some mods to the Refresher code, but it will ensure that the version in the filename agrees with the Major/Minor combination in the timetable and will allow Users to easily see which versions of a timetable they have on disk. By the way, I wouldn't envisage user-contributed timetables being auto-updated, just those supplied with the sims.

2. My reference to Moderators being more strict did not imply they should test user-contributed timetables, just ensure that the uploaded timetable details contained the required information (sim name, timetable name, loader/.exe, real/fictional, etc.).

3. My idea of an independent testing group was for newly released sims (with accompanying timetables), not user-contributed timetables. I believe this additional testing would most likely have shown up the problems that have been found in the two recently released sims, thus preventing the embarrassment that this must have caused.

These are just ideas of mine and I would appreciate the views of developers, testers and users.

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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 17/02/2016 at 00:06 #80719
Guts
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I'll tell you what I won't bother trying to do timetables

Can't be bothered with the bickering.

You'd think people had paid money for the timetable! If it doesn't work, no problem, I humbly request Geoff and/or Peter remove it from the Downloads.

I'll keep adapted timetables to myself in future, for my own pleasure.

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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 17/02/2016 at 04:30 #80720
Sidestick Priority
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Firstly apologies to Guts for derailing his thread somewhat.


I like Lyn-Greenwood's thinking, and if nothing else this free exchange of ideas could assist the SimSig team in coming up with different or improved solutions near or long term.

The discussion of non standard formats and uploads seems to pop up on here from time to time. I suspect it isn't that big a problem overall, but something that makes total sense to the uploader and author might not make much sense to the end user. Perhaps the upload process could therefore be made more robust in order to eliminate, or at least mitigate the issue of standardisation and naming of timetables.
I'm thinking along the lines of 'hand holding' the uploader during the upload process a little bit more than what is the case today:

1.Instead of choosing a file location in the upload form, a drop down menu of available simulations could be selected. This could automatically display the current sim version when selected, and automatically point to the correct location for upload.

2. A mandatory time period or specific date input - two input fields could be provided, one freetext for winter/summer etc and one for a specific date - code it so that at least one of the two is mandatory to fill in.

3. Mandatory input field for year.

4. Mandatory input field for version.

Then timetable description, licence etc.

One could then have a script running that automatically renames uploaded files in the format of 1+2+3+4 ie Exeter_Summer_2006_v50.wtt or LVicCentral_15thOct_2009_v11.wtt etc. The author would then not have a say in how the file is named.

Only allow .wtt files to be uploaded. Not sure whether the server could automatically zip uploaded files after wtt upload, that way you would assure only one genuine file per zip, if download size of TT files are an issue.

This way it would at least be presented the same way, taking individual interpretation of naming rules etc out of the equation.



Whether it is at all a good idea or even doable without a 'space program' type effort is another matter entirely.

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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 17/02/2016 at 07:11 #80723
Peter Bennet
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" said:
I'll tell you what I won't bother trying to do timetables

Can't be bothered with the bickering.

You'd think people had paid money for the timetable! If it doesn't work, no problem, I humbly request Geoff and/or Peter remove it from the Downloads.

I'll keep adapted timetables to myself in future, for my own pleasure.
Posts 1 to 13 are pretty much queries and replies about problems people appeared to be having genuine problems and on which they required help. Posts after that are not specifically about these particular timetables but general comment on the user made timetable upload and approval process. I see pretty much all this as being constructive: whether and to what extent any changes are possible is probably something for Geoff to consider. I have considered splitting the thread but I have to go for my train now so don't have time to come to a conclusion.

Peter

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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 17/02/2016 at 14:45 #80731
Steamer
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Wouldn't it just be simpler to correct the folder that is causing the problem, rather than coming up with increasingly elaborate (and labour-intensive) ways of avoiding the problem? It doesn't happen that often.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 18/02/2016 at 02:26 #80746
Finger
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" said:
" said:
As Carlisle is a sim which is not part of the new loader, I was expecting to see two files for the Carlisle timetable 15-10-2009 i.e. WTT and WRT. I only have the WTT file when I downloaded. Can someone explain please ?
The WTT that has been released by Guts has been built on a tester version of Carlisle on the loader, and isn't compatible with the public .exe version.

Carlisle throws 166 errors on the .exe version, and most of the rules don't work as they've been built on the loader.

That's not really true, after doing what Guts suggested, namely
Quote:
Open a new start in Carlisle and save the timetable using the same name (overwriting it), then restart and seeding returns to normal

everything works well (except 3 trains, 2 of which have timetables which are obviously faulty), even the rules. Why would rules from the loader not work on an exe version, when the rules model hasn't changed since long ago? Carlisle.exe evidently has parser for XML timetable format, only one that's seriously buggy as evidenced by the spurious errors you get.

Last edited: 18/02/2016 at 02:28 by Finger
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 18/02/2016 at 21:27 #80764
Guts
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I was just about to make the same comment as Finger. I've got 18 errors which don't affect gameplay.

One actually error regarding 4Q76-2 that needs correcting!!

This again is after the save on .exe fix!!



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Last edited: 18/02/2016 at 21:28 by Guts
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 18/02/2016 at 21:36 #80767
Guts
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If anyone wants the corrected timetable for the .exe version, please private message me.

I don't want to upload the corrected timetable without Peter Bennet's permission

Last edited: 18/02/2016 at 21:39 by Guts
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Motherwell and Carlisle 2009 18/02/2016 at 22:25 #80768
Peter Bennet
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" said:
If anyone wants the corrected timetable for the .exe version, please private message me.

I don't want to upload the corrected timetable without Peter Bennet's permission
If the timetables work on the currently released sims then I have no problem with you uploading them and I'll authorise them (probably tomorrow now - or someone else will). I understand that you zipped them into a single file previously, please upload separately to the correct folder.

Thanks

Peter

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