What Is A Hot Axle?

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What Is A Hot Axle? 10/04/2016 at 19:02 #81765
WinsfordSaltMine
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Hey Guys,

Yesterday I got delayed for 68 Minutes due to the train in front having a hot axle and having to travel at 5MPH could someone please explain in basic terms, what a hot axle is?.

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What Is A Hot Axle? 10/04/2016 at 19:07 #81766
Peter Bennet
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Pretty much what it says on the tin. E.g. Axle bearing might be damaged so friction causes the axle to heat up, ultimately it could melt and seize up.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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What Is A Hot Axle? 10/04/2016 at 19:11 #81767
WinsfordSaltMine
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Thanks Peter
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What Is A Hot Axle? 10/04/2016 at 19:21 #81768
Jamesh1492
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its the Barings in the Axle box, normally if a freight train we would knock the wagon out at first chance.
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What Is A Hot Axle? 10/04/2016 at 19:51 #81769
WinsfordSaltMine
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It was the Statesmen Rail Charter stock, the coach was knocked out at Crewe, but it had to travel 6Miles on 2 track before making it to a 4 track section and then another 6 Miles to Crewe, however overtaken it by then. The coach is now stabled at Crewe.
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What Is A Hot Axle? 10/04/2016 at 22:05 #81770
Stanyon
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With some sigs having habd in them could this be randomly simulated??
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What Is A Hot Axle? 11/04/2016 at 09:05 #81773
kbarber
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Hot Box... much more common in the old days.

An old fashioned journal bearing relied on sufficient - and sufficiently good - lubrication, together with sufficiently large bearing surfaces, to run properly. Lubrication was often rather hit-or-miss. if you look at a typical perserved wagon, you'll see the axle box is in two halves, split horizontally; if you look very closely you'll see there's a small lift-up cap in the lower half, into which oil could be injected using a large syringe. There used to be locations (often loops where goods trains were likely to be recessed while faster trains passed) where there were oilers and greasers whose job was to go down each train with a bucket & syringe, filling the boxes with oil. It would also be done at major yards.

The advent of roller bearings brought an end to such things; bearings were henceforth grease-packed at works visits and that was it.

When you had a hot box with journal bearings, the first thing you usually knew was the smell. A bit later on, it would start to smoke; at this point you'd put in 7 bells ('Stop & Examine'and, after the hot box was confirmed, the train would limp forward to somewhere the offending wagon could be put off (there were a lot more little sidings etc in those days). Adrian Vaughan (I think) writes about all this; I only ever had one hot box to deal with, when I was at Junction Road http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=706 and the offending vehicle was put in the Cripple Siding where it sat smoking merrily into the twilight. The wagon would be 'red carded' until the C&W Examiner (the 'Tapper', we still called them) had given it a look over and recarded it red & green - 'yard to yard for repairs'.

Roller bearing boxes gave much less warning and usually the first thing you knew, unless it passed over a HABD, was when the thing collapsed entirely. As they found out at Summit Tunnel http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=167 back in 1984...

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What Is A Hot Axle? 11/04/2016 at 11:53 #81776
Gwasanaethau
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" said:
…Roller bearing boxes gave much less warning and usually the first thing you knew, unless it passed over a HABD, was when the thing collapsed entirely. As they found out at Summit Tunnel http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=167 back in 1984...
Yup, had one of these before. Very little warning. The only way to detect these is during maintenance at depots when the end-caps have been taken off for ultrasonic testing. Trust me, it becomes obvious then! B)

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What Is A Hot Axle? 11/04/2016 at 12:01 #81778
TomOF
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Yes, the triggering at random could be done easily by the sim developer. Carlisle has latent HABDs that don't, as of yet do anything.

What isn't so easy is the following of the relevant box instructions as to where to recess and split the train, etc and that's why I never pursued it particularly. Maybe one day...?

As an aside, the hot steel coil trains running on the northern part of the WCML caused problems with spurious HABD activation when first introduced.

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What Is A Hot Axle? 11/04/2016 at 13:24 #81780
KymriskaDraken
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" said:
Hot Box... much more common in the old days.

An old fashioned journal bearing relied on sufficient - and sufficiently good - lubrication, together with sufficiently large bearing surfaces, to run properly. Lubrication was often rather hit-or-miss. if you look at a typical perserved wagon, you'll see the axle box is in two halves, split horizontally; if you look very closely you'll see there's a small lift-up cap in the lower half, into which oil could be injected using a large syringe. There used to be locations (often loops where goods trains were likely to be recessed while faster trains passed) where there were oilers and greasers whose job was to go down each train with a bucket & syringe, filling the boxes with oil. It would also be done at major yards.

The advent of roller bearings brought an end to such things; bearings were henceforth grease-packed at works visits and that was it.

When you had a hot box with journal bearings, the first thing you usually knew was the smell. A bit later on, it would start to smoke; at this point you'd put in 7 bells ('Stop & Examine'and, after the hot box was confirmed, the train would limp forward to somewhere the offending wagon could be put off (there were a lot more little sidings etc in those days). Adrian Vaughan (I think) writes about all this; I only ever had one hot box to deal with, when I was at Junction Road http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=706 and the offending vehicle was put in the Cripple Siding where it sat smoking merrily into the twilight. The wagon would be 'red carded' until the C&W Examiner (the 'Tapper', we still called them) had given it a look over and recarded it red & green - 'yard to yard for repairs'.

Roller bearing boxes gave much less warning and usually the first thing you knew, unless it passed over a HABD, was when the thing collapsed entirely. As they found out at Summit Tunnel http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=167 back in 1984...
I had a couple when I was working Bristol Panel.

The first train set off the Down HABD at Keynsham. I stopped the train at East Depot (as per box Footnotes) and the Driver announced that he wasn't surprised that he'd set off the HABD as he was a steam train. The Rules & Regs say that steam trains don't need to be stopped, but no bugger had told us that the train was steam hauled.

The other one was the aftermath of a problem at Sodding Chipbury which involved me throwing the boards back in the face of a down HST charging through the tunnel at 125mph. He slid to a stop, and that particular problem was resolved, but he set off the HABD between Westerleigh Jn and Bristol Parkway. I stopped him again and the Driver said that all of the boxes were warm (hardly surprising given that he'd just done an emergency stop from 125mph!) so he crept into Parkway, tipped the passengers (all very pissed off as it was the Red Dragon Pullman) and then trundled down the Filton Bank to Temple Meads at 5mph.


Kev

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What Is A Hot Axle? 11/04/2016 at 14:15 #81782
Jersey_Mike
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Here is a photo of a friction bearing showing the axle, bearing surface, oil reservoir and oiling pad. It is enclosed within the axle box. When the bearing would fail and overhead the contents of the axle box would catch fire and smoke, hence the term "hotbox".

Modern roller bearings are much more reliable, but can fail rapidly without warning. Main rail lines should be equipped with a hotbox detector about every 10-20 miles.

In North America, after a detector is triggered, a member of the crew must inspect the affected axle and three cars in either direction due to the unreliability of axle counting. If there are no obvious signs of failure, the member of the crew must use a wax tempstick to check the bearing for excessive heat. About 10 years ago a New Jersey Transit MU train on the Northeast Corridor triggered a hotbox alarm and the crew found no defects. Later in the run the wheel fell off because the bearing temperature was measured improperly. Now there are detailed illustrated instructions in the NJT employee rulebook.

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What Is A Hot Axle? 11/04/2016 at 21:37 #81787
RainbowNines
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" said:
As an aside, the hot steel coil trains running on the northern part of the WCML caused problems with spurious HABD activation when first introduced.
Intrigued by this Tom. I'm not well versed in the production of steel - would this be some sort of time-restricted item that had to be moved whilst still warm? I remember reading (I think) a post from Pascal talking about some oil that had to go from somewhere in the south to Liverpool within a certain time or it'd solidify.

Was this - time restricted goods (beyond the normal "I want it there by then" stuff!) - a common occurrence on the railway way back when?

(Apologies for potential thread-jacking, WSM!)

Last edited: 11/04/2016 at 21:39 by RainbowNines
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What Is A Hot Axle? 11/04/2016 at 23:12 #81790
postal
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" said:
" said:
As an aside, the hot steel coil trains running on the northern part of the WCML caused problems with spurious HABD activation when first introduced.
Intrigued by this Tom. I'm not well versed in the production of steel - would this be some sort of time-restricted item that had to be moved whilst still warm? I remember reading (I think) a post from Pascal talking about some oil that had to go from somewhere in the south to Liverpool within a certain time or it'd solidify.

Was this - time restricted goods (beyond the normal "I want it there by then" stuff!) - a common occurrence on the railway way back when?

(Apologies for potential thread-jacking, WSM!)
Probably nothing to do with any timed flows and more to do with moving a load as soon as it was ready. A big lump of steel (be it an ingot or a substantial coil) takes a long time time to cool down after it has originally been formed. More years ago than I care to remember, my haulage company had to wait for the best part of a day at Glengarnock works (see the Paisley sim!) before we could load an ingot for Teesside as it was setting fire to the timber bearers on the trailer.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 12/04/2016 at 12:55 by postal
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What Is A Hot Axle? 12/04/2016 at 09:04 #81793
Jan
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A still existing example of liquid pig iron being transported on the railway can be found near Saarbrücken in Germany - since the blast furnace at Völklingen closed down and is now a World Heritage Site, all the steel for the steel works there has to come from the blast furnace at Dillingen, which is about 20 km away.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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What Is A Hot Axle? 12/04/2016 at 12:59 #81796
postal
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" said:
A still existing example of liquid pig iron being transported on the railway can be found near Saarbrücken in Germany - since the blast furnace at Völklingen closed down and is now a World Heritage Site, all the steel for the steel works there has to come from the blast furnace at Dillingen, which is about 20 km away.
For a period around 1969 there was a regular service of molten steel from Teesside to Consett while the blast-furnaces at Consett were undergoing maintenance. More details at http://www.traintesting.com/torpedo_wagon_tests.htm.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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What Is A Hot Axle? 12/04/2016 at 15:55 #81799
58050
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During 1994 - 1996 when I was Duty freight Manager at Liverpool Street RCO Hot Box detections were a pain. I've had hundreds of them predominantly on freightliner trains on the GE mainline & if the wagon was conveying dangerous goods I had to fill out a 'Dangerous Goods Inciodent' form along with calling the fire brigade & quoting the UN number of the commodity of the goods being conveyed on the vehicle which had activated the HABD. Later when I was Duty Shift Manager at Stratford ROC the HABD at Urchfont was a regular one to go off especially with the high number of loaded aggregates trains running from merehead & Whatley Quarrues.
I remember back in 1995 an incident I had to dealwith involving 2 Mendip rail services going running over the North London line destined for Dagenham Dock & Purfleet. The first train that had activated the HABD on the North London Line was brought to a stand at channelsea Junction & the wagon with the HAB was on the rear. The brakes were isolated on that set of wagons which resulted in the leading ARC Cl.59/1 plus its train being coupled to a Foster Yeoman Cl.59/0 on the rear plus its train & the whole ensemble trundled to Ripple Lane yard at 5MPH. Needless to say that would have made an unusual photo opportunity for any spotters at Stratford station that day as well as causing substantial delays to the passenger services out of Liverpool Street.

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What Is A Hot Axle? 12/04/2016 at 16:17 #81801
Jersey_Mike
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Hot Bottle Trains can also be found in the Chicago area. Note the bottle cars use friction bearings.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=74505

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What Is A Hot Axle? 12/04/2016 at 16:24 #81802
Westrail
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We are still waiting for the book old mate hulo from Australia :cheer: :cheer:
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What Is A Hot Axle? 12/04/2016 at 18:08 #81807
Peter Bennet
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" said:
" said:
A still existing example of liquid pig iron being transported on the railway can be found near Saarbrücken in Germany - since the blast furnace at Völklingen closed down and is now a World Heritage Site, all the steel for the steel works there has to come from the blast furnace at Dillingen, which is about 20 km away.
For a period around 1969 there was a regular service of molten steel from Teesside to Consett while the blast-furnaces at Consett were undergoing maintenance. More details at http://www.traintesting.com/torpedo_wagon_tests.htm.
I have an OO model of one of them - assumed it was a cement wagon.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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What Is A Hot Axle? 16/04/2016 at 02:52 #81857
Jersey_Mike
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Forgot to post this video of a typical radio hotbox alarm call.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz-419GO3_0

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