Time compression

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Time compression 31/05/2016 at 20:15 #82803
hawke666
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16 posts 		Apologies if this has already been suggested/considered/rejected, but here goes:

I often find myself spending a lot of time waiting for something to happen with the sim, or trying to adjust speed to cope with problems / learn a route / etc.

I think it'd be great if SimSig could automatically scale the time appropriately: perhaps 4x when there are no trains on the system, 2x when trains are moving about but experiencing no problems, 1x when a train encounters a problem or a telephone call comes in etc., and (perhaps) down to 0.5x if there are multiple trains with problems.

Anyone else think this might be worthwhile?
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Time compression 31/05/2016 at 20:34 #82805
andyb0607
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260 posts 		Not sure that would be needed.

Pressing the F key gives you 5 mins at full speed.
Using the + and - key speeds up and slows down accordingly.
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Time compression 31/05/2016 at 20:42 #82806
Peter Bennet
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5362 posts 		Complete set of keys here.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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The following user said thank you: bfcmik
Time compression 31/05/2016 at 21:33 #82809
hawke666
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16 posts 		Yep, the keys are definitely handy but I still think a small degree of software intelligence / automation would be nice. (optional of course, for those who want to run a whole day in realtime or such)
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Time compression 31/05/2016 at 23:15 #82814
BarryM
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2158 posts 		If intelligence was introduced, then testing of timetables would be near impossible. That is why shortcuts are available.

Barry
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Time compression 01/06/2016 at 02:24 #82817
GeoffM
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6287 posts 		If, when running at [F]ast speed, something happens, you can hit N to reset to normal speed quickly.

Automating/varying the speed according to what is going on is a lot more involved than you might think - believe me, not just SimSig, but I've spent years working for a railway software company and we never did come up with an ideal solution. For example, ideally we should resume normal speed a period of time before a train starts to slow for an event (how much time?). But if the train is slowing for a station stop, and there is a red signal after it, at what point does the red signal become an issue? Thirty seconds before departure? Make that 2 minutes if there's a manual crossing. What if it's an approach controlled signal? What if a fast train is wrongly following a slow train due to an earlier misregulation - is that a notable event, and if so, how do we detect it? And so on.
SimSig Boss
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Time compression 01/06/2016 at 08:18 #82821
sorabain
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72 posts 		" said:
If, when running at [F]ast speed, something happens, you can hit N to reset to normal speed quickly.

Automating/varying the speed according to what is going on is a lot more involved than you might think - believe me, not just SimSig, but I've spent years working for a railway software company and we never did come up with an ideal solution. For example, ideally we should resume normal speed a period of time before a train starts to slow for an event (how much time?). But if the train is slowing for a station stop, and there is a red signal after it, at what point does the red signal become an issue? Thirty seconds before departure? Make that 2 minutes if there's a manual crossing. What if it's an approach controlled signal? What if a fast train is wrongly following a slow train due to an earlier misregulation - is that a notable event, and if so, how do we detect it? And so on.
you mean you've not developed general strong AI yet?
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Time compression 01/06/2016 at 11:40 #82824
Finger
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220 posts 		" said:
If, when running at [F]ast speed, something happens, you can hit N to reset to normal speed quickly.

Automating/varying the speed according to what is going on is a lot more involved than you might think - believe me, not just SimSig, but I've spent years working for a railway software company and we never did come up with an ideal solution. For example, ideally we should resume normal speed a period of time before a train starts to slow for an event (how much time?). But if the train is slowing for a station stop, and there is a red signal after it, at what point does the red signal become an issue? Thirty seconds before departure? Make that 2 minutes if there's a manual crossing. What if it's an approach controlled signal? What if a fast train is wrongly following a slow train due to an earlier misregulation - is that a notable event, and if so, how do we detect it? And so on.
How about "train waiting at red and wants to run OR train reports a bad route" - if that happens in the next 1 minute (or 2 - 3), slow down. That would make pretty much everything the SimSigger needs to take care of (except berth inscription changes), and two minutes should be generous enough for most LCs, distant signals at danger and most diversionary routes. Of course the SimSigger needs to be alert even at high speed.
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Time compression 01/06/2016 at 13:29 #82828
JamesN
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1576 posts 		" said:
" said:
If, when running at [F]ast speed, something happens, you can hit N to reset to normal speed quickly.

Automating/varying the speed according to what is going on is a lot more involved than you might think - believe me, not just SimSig, but I've spent years working for a railway software company and we never did come up with an ideal solution. For example, ideally we should resume normal speed a period of time before a train starts to slow for an event (how much time?). But if the train is slowing for a station stop, and there is a red signal after it, at what point does the red signal become an issue? Thirty seconds before departure? Make that 2 minutes if there's a manual crossing. What if it's an approach controlled signal? What if a fast train is wrongly following a slow train due to an earlier misregulation - is that a notable event, and if so, how do we detect it? And so on.
How about "train waiting at red and wants to run OR train reports a bad route" - if that happens in the next 1 minute (or 2 - 3), slow down. That would make pretty much everything the SimSigger needs to take care of (except berth inscription changes), and two minutes should be generous enough for most LCs, distant signals at danger and most diversionary routes. Of course the SimSigger needs to be alert even at high speed.
The problem with that being, by the time that has happened (to trigger the slow down) it's already too late. You've stopped the train at the Red Signal, you've wrong-routed the train.

You can't do it x minutes before such an event happens, because you can wrong-route a train any time, a signal can be red with a train approaching for any number of routine/legitimate causes. It would be slowing down too much.

There's also personal preference to factor in. You've identified 2 area ms where you would like this hypothetical system to intervene, but your criteria for slowing the sim down may be stricter than someone else - or not as strict. So we have to have a whole ream of options to slow the sim down which you turn on or off...

If Geoff says its so complex that his former employer was unable to do it for its professional simulations for real railway training, I'd quite happily take that as "nice idea, not possible" - I'm sure any solution we might come up with has long been thought of and dismissed.

Bottom line, in my humblest of opinions, is if you can't speed the sim up without relying on the sim to slow it down for you when something needs your attention, you shouldn't be speeding the sim up in he first place.
Last edited: 01/06/2016 at 13:33 by JamesN
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Time compression 01/06/2016 at 17:00 #82838
hawke666
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16 posts 		" said:
The problem with that being, by the time that has happened (to trigger the slow down) it's already too late. You've stopped the train at the Red Signal, you've wrong-routed the train.
I can't speak for everyone but I'd be completely OK with that. I'm not looking to prevent my screwups but to reduce the impact once they happen. If I'm running on fast and have a wrong route set, it might take me from 3-10 seconds to notice and hit the 'N' button. At fast speed that's anywhere from 30 seconds of game time on up to almost two minutes gone. Obviously just a game so not the end of the world, but...

I certainly wouldn't be expecting any kind of lookahead to catch *future* mistakes; I was just hoping for some damage mitigation when I do make a mistake.
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Time compression 01/06/2016 at 17:08 #82841
GeoffM
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6287 posts 		" said:
" said:
If, when running at [F]ast speed, something happens, you can hit N to reset to normal speed quickly.

Automating/varying the speed according to what is going on is a lot more involved than you might think - believe me, not just SimSig, but I've spent years working for a railway software company and we never did come up with an ideal solution. For example, ideally we should resume normal speed a period of time before a train starts to slow for an event (how much time?). But if the train is slowing for a station stop, and there is a red signal after it, at what point does the red signal become an issue? Thirty seconds before departure? Make that 2 minutes if there's a manual crossing. What if it's an approach controlled signal? What if a fast train is wrongly following a slow train due to an earlier misregulation - is that a notable event, and if so, how do we detect it? And so on.
you mean you've not developed general strong AI yet?
What do you mean by that?
SimSig Boss
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Time compression 01/06/2016 at 17:11 #82842
GeoffM
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6287 posts 		" said:
" said:
If, when running at [F]ast speed, something happens, you can hit N to reset to normal speed quickly.

Automating/varying the speed according to what is going on is a lot more involved than you might think - believe me, not just SimSig, but I've spent years working for a railway software company and we never did come up with an ideal solution. For example, ideally we should resume normal speed a period of time before a train starts to slow for an event (how much time?). But if the train is slowing for a station stop, and there is a red signal after it, at what point does the red signal become an issue? Thirty seconds before departure? Make that 2 minutes if there's a manual crossing. What if it's an approach controlled signal? What if a fast train is wrongly following a slow train due to an earlier misregulation - is that a notable event, and if so, how do we detect it? And so on.
How about "train waiting at red and wants to run OR train reports a bad route" - if that happens in the next 1 minute (or 2 - 3), slow down. That would make pretty much everything the SimSigger needs to take care of (except berth inscription changes), and two minutes should be generous enough for most LCs, distant signals at danger and most diversionary routes. Of course the SimSigger needs to be alert even at high speed.
As per James - you've expressed your preferences which might not match those of others. And no, it absolutely does not cover everything the SimSigger needs to take care of. This is the problem: there are so many events or future events that other users might want to know about <insert varying number here> minutes before they happen.
SimSig Boss
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Time compression 02/06/2016 at 01:22 #82859
Finger
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220 posts 		" said:
The problem with that being, by the time that has happened (to trigger the slow down) it's already too late. You've stopped the train at the Red Signal, you've wrong-routed the train.

That's why you'd slow down a few minutes before. 2 minutes is enough to still cancel the route on fast lines, because the train is still 3 miles away or more. Ditto for route setting.

" said:
You can't do it x minutes before such an event happens, because you can wrong-route a train any time

What has this got to do with it? If you wrong routed it earlier, you'll get your time to correct yourself. If it was later than a few minutes before running the wrong route, you probably just screwed up. The point is, the measure shouldn't protect you against wrong routing a train by error, it should just ensure that when you have a certain route set on auto and an odd train needs that to be canceled and be routed otherwise, you've got time to do it like you've had if you ran 1x speed.

" said:
a signal can be red with a train approaching for any number of routine/legitimate causes

Like what? If it's regulation or pathing conflicts, these are exactly the situations you need to focus on and therefore run slower.

" said:
Bottom line, in my humblest of opinions, is if you can't speed the sim up without relying on the sim to slow it down for you when something needs your attention, you shouldn't be speeding the sim up in he first place.

I think there's no need to employ moral arguments in a technical issue. This is not about people running Simsig in a way they shouldn't. It's about making the sim manageable at higher speeds that wouldn't otherwise be possible, while still allowing for fewer errors, which could eg. make timetable testing less time-consuming, esp. on smaller (like Exeter) or ARS sims. Whether that idea would achieve that goal, or whether the sim would be slowing down too much, is a matter for tuning and testing. My opinion is that it wouldn't, because on many sims, you don't do much, but still need to do it in its proper time.

" said:
And no, it absolutely does not cover everything the SimSigger needs to take care of. This is the problem: there are so many events or future events that other users might want to know about <insert varying number here> minutes before they happen.

It may not be everything the Simsigger nedds to take care of, but I'd say it is more than 95%. What else is there? Slot requests, phonecalls - and most of these involve some train staying at red. Unsignalled moves - the same. LCs are also a problem only if a train is to stop before them. Train describers were already mentioned. My idea isn't to let other users know about any random event, which inevitably leads to unnecessary complexity. My idea is to keep it simple and see how far that could lead. And yes, there are details to consider - maybe automatic signals need not be considered, maybe stopping at red should slow the sim sooner, because trains take more time to stop at red, but these are mere technicalities.

hawke666 said:
I certainly wouldn't be expecting any kind of lookahead to catch *future* mistakes;

I actually think it's better to use lookahead, because it's easier to define undesirable events in the future than suspicious circumstances at present. And sim-world makes it possible and quite easy.
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Time compression 02/06/2016 at 07:06 #82862
sorabain
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72 posts 		" said:
" said:
" said:
If, when running at [F]ast speed, something happens, you can hit N to reset to normal speed quickly.

Automating/varying the speed according to what is going on is a lot more involved than you might think - believe me, not just SimSig, but I've spent years working for a railway software company and we never did come up with an ideal solution. For example, ideally we should resume normal speed a period of time before a train starts to slow for an event (how much time?). But if the train is slowing for a station stop, and there is a red signal after it, at what point does the red signal become an issue? Thirty seconds before departure? Make that 2 minutes if there's a manual crossing. What if it's an approach controlled signal? What if a fast train is wrongly following a slow train due to an earlier misregulation - is that a notable event, and if so, how do we detect it? And so on.
you mean you've not developed general strong AI yet?
What do you mean by that?
I mean it sounds like one of those feature requests where the solution "seems obvious" in hindsight to any specific example when considered by a human, but the implementation of it would require human-level intelligence in itself. Tongue in cheek.

http://xkcd.com/1425/

(Edit: and in this particular case it sounds like something where any specific scenario can apparently be "codified" without much trouble and thus seem like something that should be possible, but general problem is complex enough that with experience you'd find unintended consequences or outright contradictions which would lead to reams of additional clauses or attempts to mitigate the function slowing down too often etc. etc. e.g. someone mentioned you'd end up needing a whole bunch of checkboxes that people could turn on and off to approximate what they want to happen. In the end only a general human-level AI would solve the problem "efficiently" by learning what your preferences really are)
Last edited: 02/06/2016 at 07:15 by sorabain
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The following users said thank you: GeoffM, Prof Jolly, JamesN
Time compression 04/06/2016 at 18:37 #82904
hawke666
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16 posts 		" said:
Using the + and - key speeds up and slows down accordingly.
This doesn't work for me. F and N work fine, but +/- do nothing.

EDIT: Oh, on numeric keypad. I don't have one of those. :-/ Is there any reason this can't use both sets of +/- keys?
Last edited: 04/06/2016 at 18:38 by hawke666
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Time compression 04/06/2016 at 19:35 #82908
TomOF
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452 posts 		Predicting where a train is going to be in x number of seconds is a pretty onerous task.

I prefer judicious use of the 'F' key used in conjunction with the mk1 eyeball keeping an eye on the area.

I don't think a solution can be arrived that that will please everybody.
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Time compression 07/06/2016 at 08:17 #82928
Giantray
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332 posts 		Simulation is "the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time. The act of simulating something first requires that a model be developed; this model represents the key characteristics or behaviors/functions of the selected physical or abstract system or process."

I want a Time Compression Button on my workstation at work!! Imagine speeding through the morning rush hours on the Southern, or through the wee hours waiting for things to happen. If only life were that easy.
Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution..
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