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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line.

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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 17/08/2016 at 00:21 #84123
GraphiteProjekt
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I have a train (5E01) that has come from the up-line at Upminster. It wants to go into East Ham EMUD from the up-line. This is good because there is a set of points that goes from the up-line (signal 156) to East Ham EMUD. I tried to set the route from 156 to the grey triangle but it claims that the "point(s) locked normal by another route" and thus it can't set the route. I must say that in front of 156 and behind the points that lead to the down line (so on top and below the points from the up-line) are two blue rectangles on the line. The seemed to have popped up at some point when I wasn't looking. They don't normally get in the way when I'm setting routes towards West Ham but I don't know if they have anything to do with this problem. Am I supposed to route the train on the down line briefly to put it in to the EMUD from the other way? If my description is hard to follow then I'm putting in a picture of what I mean (a really good quality picture). The alternative route I was talking about is in green. The only other way I can think of is to have the train run over to the next main signal (all the way to 130 guarding Gas Factory loop) and then reverse them to the bottom entrexit of the EMUD, but they're not programmed to?

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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 17/08/2016 at 00:37 #84124
MarkC
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from looking at the picture you have supplied the reason the route won't set is that the points are locked and not by the route of the other 2 trains (2R20 and 1B15)

I have highlighted on the picture (the purple box) you provided the points that are lock, they have a blue highlight which indicates that you (the signaller) have locked the points.



to enable them to move just click on the blue highlight with the left mouse button and the blue highlight should dissapear and you then should be able to set the route into the depot


This page Signalling Display Symbols may help you understand aspects of track and signalling

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It's not my fault! I was left unsupervised.
Last edited: 17/08/2016 at 00:47 by MarkC
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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 17/08/2016 at 01:26 #84125
GraphiteProjekt
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Ah, I started a new game anyway (I got bored at looking at my previous saves) and when I was setting up, I found a tick-box that allows slots (still don't really know what that means) but now I get to click a white circle and they let a train in. I assume I'm asking for permission.
Last edited: 17/08/2016 at 01:34 by GraphiteProjekt
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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 17/08/2016 at 16:02 #84136
MarkC
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Having looked at how the original game was set (best guess from the screen shot you provided) the problems was not to do with the slots, as having played in the setup I belive you started with before you restarted the sim, I was able to set a route into the depot without the need to get a slot, I still think that you may have locked the points (whats shown in the pics as a blue highlight) which will prevent the points moving and therefore you are unable to set the route.

you are correct in that the slots are asking for permissions to enter or leave.

in the original game you were playing even though there was no slots to use you still would of been able to set the route if the points had not of been locked

It's not my fault! I was left unsupervised.
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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 22/08/2016 at 00:11 #84209
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Yes the locked points were the problem, but now I'm playing with slots and I can't get the damn train into the depot. To aid with this explanation i have supplied a crap diagram I've made after rage-quitting. The only route into the depot that I can find is the one below. If I set the route from B to E then that works but if I then try to add from A(1) to B it says that the points are locked by another route. If I set the route from A(1) to B then it forces the route towards C because if I try to route towards E then it says that there is no overlap.

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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 22/08/2016 at 00:15 #84210
GraphiteProjekt
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Yes the locked points were the problem, but now I'm playing with slots and I can't get the damn train into the depot. To aid with this explanation i have supplied a crap diagram I've made after rage-quitting. The only route into the depot that I can find is the one below. If I set the route from B to E then that works but if I then try to add from A(1) to B it says that the points are locked by another route. If I set the route from A(1) to B then it forces the route towards C because if I try to route towards E then it says that there is no overlap.
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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 22/08/2016 at 00:17 #84211
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Yes the locked points were the problem, but now I'm playing with slots and I can't get the damn train into the depot. To aid with this explanation i have supplied a crap diagram I've made after rage-quitting. The only route into the depot that I can find is the one below. If I set the route from B to E then that works but if I then try to add from A(1) to B it says that the points are locked by another route. If I set the route from A(1) to B then it forces the route towards C because if I try to route towards E then it says that there is no overlap!

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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 22/08/2016 at 02:53 #84213
BarryM
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You need to run the train for the depot by setting the route from A to B. When the train stops at B, request the slot. You have to wait till the overlap clears then once you get the slot, signal the train into the depot.

You cannot set the route from A or A1 to B if the points are reversed into the depot.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 22/08/2016 at 09:32 #84215
kbarber
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" said:
You need to run the train for the depot by setting the route from A to B. When the train stops at B, request the slot. You have to wait till the overlap clears then once you get the slot, signal the train into the depot.

You cannot set the route from A or A1 to B if the points are reversed into the depot.

Barry

Though I don't doubt it's true, that surprises me. Traffic is heavy on that line and one thing you really don't want is a train having to stop at B for the overlap to die before the route in can be set, particularly as that is just London side of the convergence of Upminster & Tilbury routes. I believe things are a little quieter there now (3 min timetable headway); in my day (2 1/2 min headway) waiting for the overlap to die would have had at least three trains waiting at red signals!

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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 22/08/2016 at 13:50 #84217
BarryM
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" said:
" said:
You need to run the train for the depot by setting the route from A to B. When the train stops at B, request the slot. You have to wait till the overlap clears then once you get the slot, signal the train into the depot.

You cannot set the route from A or A1 to B if the points are reversed into the depot.

Barry

Though I don't doubt it's true, that surprises me. Traffic is heavy on that line and one thing you really don't want is a train having to stop at B for the overlap to die before the route in can be set, particularly as that is just London side of the convergence of Upminster & Tilbury routes. I believe things are a little quieter there now (3 min timetable headway); in my day (2 1/2 min headway) waiting for the overlap to die would have had at least three trains waiting at red signals!
Keith,

It only applies to trains destined for the Car Sidings. You cannot set the points while the overlap is applied.

Would they have trains entering the depot while 2½ minute headways were tabled?

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 22/08/2016 at 15:40 #84220
GeoffM
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Yes, the overlap needs to drop out before the points can be swung into the depot. Track BGA occupied for 22 seconds according to the SSI data.

With regards to headway, trains don't go in that end during peak times generally (especially since the trains are *needed* for rush hour!) so it's not much of an issue.

SimSig Boss
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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 22/08/2016 at 19:49 #84222
clive
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Geoff's explained the specific situation here, but in general please remember that Fenchurch Street is a deliberate re-release of the original SimSig simulation which is known to have contained errors.
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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 23/08/2016 at 08:49 #84223
kbarber
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" said:
Yes, the overlap needs to drop out before the points can be swung into the depot. Track BGA occupied for 22 seconds according to the SSI data.

With regards to headway, trains don't go in that end during peak times generally (especially since the trains are *needed* for rush hour!) so it's not much of an issue.

Needed they certainly are. But it was far from unknown, if there was a failure (either train or infrastructure) to tip out at Barking and stick the train in East Ham, bringing it out to take up its back working (with Control busy sorting out the crew workings - crews always used to 'step back' at Fenchurch because of the difficulty getting to the other end of a long train on a crowded platform in the short time available). Of course, if that were to happen today you'd have to knock ARS out, which in turn is likely to extend the delay - the bobby has to watch for the overlap to die rather than relying on ARS to set up as soon as the route becomes available, and if he is working with a failure his attention is likely to be with that in any case. Interesting to see how they set things up nowadays though.

I don't know for certain, but I suspect the old box had an overlap that could be set toward the depot, perhaps even a swinging overlap. Unfortunately I'm no longer in touch with anyone who used to work it, so can't be sure and can't find out.

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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 23/08/2016 at 18:49 #84225
GeoffM
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" said:
I don't know for certain, but I suspect the old box had an overlap that could be set toward the depot, perhaps even a swinging overlap. Unfortunately I'm no longer in touch with anyone who used to work it, so can't be sure and can't find out.
Signal BK19 was in broadly the same place as current signal UR156. Both are virtually on top of the pointwork so if there was an overlap into the depot it would have been a short one - a reduced overlap probably, which meant approach controlled from the signal in rear (BK13; prior to that BK11 was the platform starter on P5). Still slow!

SimSig Boss
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Fenchurch Street: Entering East-Ham EMUD from the Up-Line. 25/08/2016 at 08:11 #84239
kbarber
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" said:
" said:
I don't know for certain, but I suspect the old box had an overlap that could be set toward the depot, perhaps even a swinging overlap. Unfortunately I'm no longer in touch with anyone who used to work it, so can't be sure and can't find out.
Signal BK19 was in broadly the same place as current signal UR156. Both are virtually on top of the pointwork so if there was an overlap into the depot it would have been a short one - a reduced overlap probably, which meant approach controlled from the signal in rear (BK13; prior to that BK11 was the platform starter on P5). Still slow!
Thanks Geoff. Yes, I think the layout around East Ham is pretty much unchanged with the resignalling apart from removing every other signal as they changed from 4-aspect to 3. But I think the depot entrances are slower these days. On the down, the old BK16 (small yellow below the main head and offset to the right) used to clear in time for a train to continue moving at a fair rate, but the 'cats eyes' on UR149 seem much slower to clear and trains pass at a much lower speed than they used to.

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