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Norwegian cab ride

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Norwegian cab ride 18/04/2017 at 19:00 #94574
Zoe
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https://www.youtube.com/user/Saalbahnhof/videos

Four cab rides (one for each season) of the entire Nordland line from Tondheim to Bodø. The entire journey takes almost 10 hours and in addition to the spectacular scenery, the signalling is quite varied.

From Trondheim to Steinkjer the single line is quite busy with frequent passing loops, beyond there the loops are less frequent but there are some block signals between them which would allow a second train to proceed before the first has reached the next loop.

The line seems to be fully track circuited and controlled from Trondheim in the south but this seems to end at Eiterstraum with the signals north of there under local control and a member of staff acknowledging each train as it passes. I'm not sure if there is any equivalent of tokenless block in use here.

The line continues to be fully signalled (although under local control) until Skonseng but north of there until Bodø the only signals simply control the entrance to stations/loops with authority to proceed into the next section given either when the train has stopped or by a green flag/light if the train is not stopping. At Fauske you can even see a member of staff changing the points and driving back to the station on a quad bike/snowmobile.

You can see new signals have been installed between Mosjøen and Bodø but not yet in use so it would seem that these videos were filmed in the last days of this method of operation in the north before resignalling.

Last edited: 18/04/2017 at 19:06 by Zoe
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Norwegian cab ride 01/06/2017 at 23:38 #95564
stighetl
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Great video! I've actually seen some hours of it, and I'm planning to watch it all.

Zoe in post 94574 said:

The line seems to be fully track circuited and controlled from Trondheim in the south but this seems to end at Eiterstraum with the signals north of there under local control and a member of staff acknowledging each train as it passes. I'm not sure if there is any equivalent of tokenless block in use here.
I will try to explain as best as I can with my broken English. There is a dispatcher central in Trondheim. They control and monitors the traffic all the way from Trondheim to Bodø (Even thought there isn't much to control after Eiterstraum as you mention)

It's been awhile since I started watching, so I don't remember everything. The signals north of Eiterstraum is under local control by a TXP (togekspeditør = "Train expeditor". Not sure if there's an English name for this. It is not the same as a dispatcher.)

I'm not quite sure how the token system work in UK, but we don't have tokens per se here in Norway. The TXP at adjacent stations exchange togmelding (directly translated "train message"with each other. TXP at station A call the TXP at station B, ask if he can send train 123. TXP at station B accept, and write down the train number on a piece of paper). When the train arrives at station B, the TXP write down that the train has arrived, and the track is clear.

Zoe in post 94574 said:

The line continues to be fully signalled (although under local control) until Skonseng but north of there until Bodø the only signals simply control the entrance to stations/loops with authority to proceed into the next section given either when the train has stopped or by a green flag/light if the train is not stopping. At Fauske you can even see a member of staff changing the points and driving back to the station on a quad bike/snowmobile.
That's correct. There is only entry signals at these stations, and no exit signals. The TXP set the signal by using a "switch" which basically work just as an on/off button.
They can't even set the points from their control room, so they have to walk (or in this case use a quad bike/snowmobile) to the points. They also have to lock the points with a padlock, so that nobody can change the points.

The TXP has to be present at the platform when the train arrives. If the TXP is not at the platform, the train has to stop (Even thought it's not supposed to stop there). The TXP will give authority to proceed into the next section with a white disc with a green border, or a light. They can also give the permission orally. If the train is not going to stop at the station, they will give the permission with a green flag.

Zoe in post 94574 said:

You can see new signals have been installed between Mosjøen and Bodø but not yet in use so it would seem that these videos were filmed in the last days of this method of operation in the north before resignalling.
The signals are actually still not in use, and they won't be for many years to come. They placed the signals, but found out that they want to use ERMTS instead. (So they don't have to first spend alot of money on getting the signals to work, and then spend alot of money on ERTMS)

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask! =) I will gladly answer them (Or at least try to answer them)!

- Stig
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Norwegian cab ride 02/06/2017 at 00:02 #95566
postal
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stighetl in post 95564 said:
I'm not quite sure how the token system work in UK, but we don't have tokens per se here in Norway. The TXP at adjacent stations exchange togmelding (directly translated "train message"with each other. TXP at station A call the TXP at station B, ask if he can send train 123. TXP at station B accept, and write down the train number on a piece of paper). When the train arrives at station B, the TXP write down that the train has arrived, and the track is clear.)!
Hope there's a bit more structure than that. There was a similar system in the UK in 1874 which allowed the Thorpe rail accident to occur when incorrect messages were sent, supposedly with the authority of the equivalent of the TXP.

"I have often regretted my speech, never my silence." - Xenocrates, Greek Platonic philosopher,(396 BC - 314 BC)
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Norwegian cab ride 02/06/2017 at 13:54 #95575
Zoe
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Tusen takk, stighetl. I wasn't expecting anyone in Norway to reply so your information is much appreciated.

I have seem some photos of the line from about 10 years ago where you can see flags on the platform at stations between Grong and Eiterstraum so it seems that this section used to be controlled in the same way as north from Ørtfjell. Did Eiterstraum to Skonseng used to be controlled this way or have there always been TXP controlled signals on this section?

Also how does Eiterstraum work, are the signals and points there controlled both by the TXP and Trondheim The TXP would need to exchange togmelding with Mosjøen but the section from Trofors would be controlled by Trondheim.

Also in all four videos, the train proceeds at full speed through Bolna without even slowing for the entry signal. Since there is no TXP visible then I guess this is what we would call here "switched out" with Dunderland exchanging togmelding direclty with Lønsdal. In this case then the driver must have been told in advance that there was no TXP on duty at Bolna so they would know not to slow for the entry signal.

Last edited: 02/06/2017 at 21:24 by Zoe
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Norwegian cab ride 02/06/2017 at 21:12 #95586
stighetl
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postal in post 95566 said:

Hope there's a bit more structure than that. There was a similar system in the UK in 1874 which allowed the Thorpe rail accident to occur when incorrect messages were sent, supposedly with the authority of the equivalent of the TXP.
It's been a long day, and I'm really tired, making my broken English even worse. Hope you understand what I mean. I might go back later and edit what I have written.

Fortunately, there is more structure than this.
First of all, the TXP exchange "togmelding" with each other, making sure that the track ahead is clear. In this example TXP at station A want to send a train to station B. When he has permission to send a train, he will give permission to the driver by showing the white disc with a green border. The TXP have to give permission to the guard/conductor as well.

Even thought the train driver get the permission, the guard/conductor is not allowed to give the signal "departure" before he receive the permission as well.

Now over to passings:
It took me quite awhile to find the right word for this. I don't think you use the same word in UK as we do here in Norway. In Norway, when a train has to stop and wait for an oncoming train, we call the process "kryssing". I think you just use the word passing, or pass each other?
Anyway. Driver in train 1 has to stop and wait for train 2. He will look at his train route where it says that he has to wait for train 2.
Driver in train 1 is obligated to ensure that the passing train has arrived. If the train has not arrived, he is not allowed to drive, even thought he received permission from the TXP, and the signal showing a green aspect. A good fail-safe system.

If the train is late, and they have to move the passing, both drivers will receive a written order to continue. Driver in train 1 is obligated to ensure that train 2 has arrived at the new location/passing loop, and driver in train 2 is obligated to ensure that train 1 has arrived.

I hope this made sense.


Zoe in post 95575 said:
I have seem some photos of the line from about 10 years ago where you can see flags on the platform at stations between Grong and Eiterstraum so it seems that this section used to be controlled in the same way as north from Ørtfjell. Did Eiterstraum to Skonseng used to be controlled this way or have there always been TXP controlled signals on this section?
I will take a look at this tomorrow.

Zoe in post 95575 said:
Also how does Eiterstraum work, are the signals and points there controlled both by the TXP and Trondheim The TXP would need to exchange togmelding with Mosjøen but the section from Trofors would be controlled by Trondheim.
I will take a look at this tomorrow.

Zoe in post 95575 said:
Also in all four videos, the train proceeds at full speed through Bolna without even slowing for the entry signal. Since there is no TXP visible then I guess this is what we would call here "switched out" with Dunderland exchanging togmelding direclty with Lønsdal. In this case then the driver must have been told in advance that there was no TXP on duty at Bolna so they would know not to slow for the entry signal.
That's absolutely correct!
In the train route, it tells you which station is operated by a TXP or not.
There has to be a TXP present if two trains is going to pass each other at this station. (They are not allowed to pass without a TXP present). Since this train is not going to pass any other trains here, there doesn't have to be a TXP present. Money saved.

I don't know the train number for the particular trains in the video, but I found todays route for train 471, leaving Trondheim at 7:38AM and arriving at Bodø at 5:28PM:



The K in KO means that the train need permission from the TXP to continue. The triangle means that the station is unmanned by a TXP, and that the train can just pass the station.

If you look closely at the signal, you can see that the signal is dark, or unlit. This is because the station is unammed. The station is now per definition a part of the line (Not a station anymore, per definition)

The unlit signal:
If however there is no triangle in the train order (Meaning the station is manned), and the signal is unlit, the train has to stop.

And this is for you, postal: In the train order I linked to, you can also see that our train (471) is going to pass train 472 at Dunderland, 1790 at Fauske, and 474 at Bodø. At these station, the driver in our train is obligated to ensure that the passing train has arrived.
472 is obligated to ensure that our train has arrived at Dunderland, and so on.


Zoe in post 95575 said:
Tusen takk, stighetl. I wasn't expecting anyone in Norway to reply so your information us much appreciated.
No problem! I'm just glad to help! :)
I'm afraid what I wrote is a little bit messy and unclear. It's been a long day. And sorry for the typos! If there's something here you don't understand, just ask! I'm really glad to help!

- Stig
Last edited: 02/06/2017 at 21:15 by stighetl
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Norwegian cab ride 02/06/2017 at 23:00 #95588
peterb
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Hei stigheti, I will be doing Oslo - Trondheim and Trondheim - Bodo next week, and I'm interested to know what website this is from?

stighetl in post 95586 said:



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Norwegian cab ride 02/06/2017 at 23:17 #95589
stighetl
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Hei Peterb!

This train route is from FIDO (Filtrert distribusjon av operative kunngjøringer, or "Filtered distribution of operational announcements" in English), which is where drivers get their route for the trains they're going to drive. They started using FIDO just a couple of years ago. Before this they had to take with them stack of papers when driving a train. Now they have everything available on a tablet.

Unfortunately this website is only available for people working in this field: Train drivers, guards, TXPs, dispatchers, etc.
I'm lucky having access to FIDO since I'm a train driver student.

The information and routes on FIDO is not confidential, so I can send you pictures of your route if you tell me the departure time and date for your trains

More information about FIDO can be found here: fido.jbv.no (Norwegian website)

- Stig
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