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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 18/05/2017 at 15:48 #95187
VInce
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Hi all,

I've been doing some work to correct a few discrepancies on the 1977 Peterborough timetable. I am aware of what is required in so far as timetable creation for Fletton Flyash, i.e. the train arrives and goes around the loop and back to the fly ash line where it is examined (and sometimes changes engine) and is given a fresh reporting number to go forward.

6E30 is the first such train to enter the sim when I run it and it is timetabled in accordance with this policy (see attachment) and the timetable verifies without issue. However, when the train reaches P470 on the up Stamford ARS routes it correctly towards P4 but I get the message that 6E30 has a wrong route set at P430 with the options to either wait 5 and replace the signal, abandon the timetable or bypass Peterborough. It says it is booked via the Flyash line which it clearly isn't.

Whilst there is access to the Flyash line at the north end, there is no signalling to allow it to run out of the south end (and a set of catchpoints too!) towards to Fletton Flyash circle.

If I tell it to bypass Peterborough at the next signal it again tells me is is wrongly routed.

Experimentation has shown that the same happens at the two other signals immediately north of Peterborough Station (P468 UFL or P466 USL) irrespective whether the train is timetabled to run via P4 or Via P2 and Fletton Jcn.


If however, I remove the Flyash line as the last entry in the schedule leaving just Fletton Flyash as the last entry, it accepts the routing without question. Of course then, given the instruction regarding timetabling trains here it won't return to the sim via the flyash circle.

Anyone any ideas of a workaround - see attached snapshot and screen grabs

Vince




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Last edited: 18/05/2017 at 15:52 by VInce
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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 18/05/2017 at 16:25 #95189
mark265
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I have had a play about with this and one option I thought might work was changing Peterborough Flyash Line to Peterborough and have platform as FAL, thinking that it stood for "Flyash Line" however I am finding that ARS wants to route trains with FAL as the platform into P4 and the driver will also call in wrong route.
Last edited: 18/05/2017 at 16:35 by mark265
Reason: Info added

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 18/05/2017 at 16:44 #95190
clive
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VInce in post 95187 said:

However, when the train reaches P470 on the up Stamford ARS routes it correctly towards P4 but I get the message that 6E30 has a wrong route set at P430 with the options to either wait 5 and replace the signal, abandon the timetable or bypass Peterborough.
It sounds like there's an error in the wrong route coding. I don't have the sim data to hand at this moment but will look at it when I can.

VInce in post 95187 said:

It says it is booked via the Flyash line which it clearly isn't.
What is saying that?

VInce in post 95187 said:

Whilst there is access to the Flyash line at the north end, there is no signalling to allow it to run out of the south end (and a set of catchpoints too!) towards to Fletton Flyash circle.
That's correct.

VInce in post 95187 said:

If however, I remove the Flyash line as the last entry in the schedule leaving just Fletton Flyash as the last entry, it accepts the routing without question.
That's consistent with my theory.

VInce in post 95187 said:

Of course then, given the instruction regarding timetabling trains here it won't return to the sim via the flyash circle.
Actually, it'll run round the circle to signal 53 and then stop there, saying it's run out of timetable.

Mark, I need to look into your point as well as I would have expected that to work.

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 18/05/2017 at 17:05 #95191
VInce
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VInce in post 95187 said:

It says it is booked via the Flyash line which it clearly isn't.
What is saying that?

When the telephone to 6E30 is answered the dialogue box says:-

6E30 has a wrong route set at 470 signal, booked via flyash line. Wait 5 mins while signal is replaced, abandon timetable or bypass Peterborough


Thanks for your help,

Vince

Last edited: 18/05/2017 at 17:06 by VInce
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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 18/05/2017 at 17:08 #95192
mark265
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clive in post 95190 said:


Mark, I need to look into your point as well as I would have expected that to work.
Thanks clive, So FAL should be the Flyash line?

Extra Info

There does seen to be another inconsistency as well I created a test TT where the train went round the loop and returned to Peterborough S DS and had it change trains to another one ie 4A00 went round loop and returned to sim and stopped on PBO S DS and became 4A01, but the TD for 4A00 set the route into P4 at PBO

Last edited: 18/05/2017 at 17:12 by mark265
Reason: added info

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 18/05/2017 at 17:34 #95193
WesternChampion
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I wonder if there is something wrong with the operation of the signalling in the Up direction along the Down Slow between Peterborough Station and Fletton. There are two signals, labelled 56R and 56. 56R has both main and subsidiary aspects, 56 is just a "shunt" signal. You can set a route from Sig 442 (Platform 4) or Sig 444 (Platform 5) to 56R but not to 56. You can set a route from 56 to the Fletton Loop. I cannot set a route from 56R at all.

Usually signals suffixed "R" are repeaters or "distants" for main signals, so I wouldn't expect to be able to set a route to them. Should the routes from 442 and 444 be to 56 rather than 56R?

Chris

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 18/05/2017 at 17:46 #95194
mark265
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WesternChampion in post 95193 said:
I wonder if there is something wrong with the operation of the signalling in the Up direction along the Down Slow between Peterborough Station and Fletton. There are two signals, labelled 56R and 56. 56R has both main and subsidiary aspects, 56 is just a "shunt" signal. You can set a route from Sig 442 (Platform 4) or Sig 444 (Platform 5) to 56R but not to 56. You can set a route from 56 to the Fletton Loop. I cannot set a route from 56R at all.

Usually signals suffixed "R" are repeaters or "distants" for main signals, so I wouldn't expect to be able to set a route to them. Should the routes from 442 and 444 be to 56 rather than 56R?

Chris
Not sure myself but I do know that 56R shunt does clear after a few mins with the route set from 56, and the train has occupied the TC just in rear of signal.

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 18/05/2017 at 18:24 #95195
postal
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Vince

Have you seen this thread (https://www.simsig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/43625?postId=95104)?

A full-scale updating of the 1977 TT has already been undertaken and it will presumably be released once testing is complete.

"Half of the American people have never read a newspaper. Half never voted for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal, American writer, 03/10/1925 - 31/07/2012
Last edited: 18/05/2017 at 18:24 by postal
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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 18/05/2017 at 19:46 #95196
VInce
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Hello,

No, I hadn't and look forward to trying it.

Vince

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 19/05/2017 at 12:49 #95205
clive
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VInce in post 95187 said:

However, when the train reaches P470 on the up Stamford ARS routes it correctly towards P4 but I get the message that 6E30 has a wrong route set at P430 with the options to either wait 5 and replace the signal, abandon the timetable or bypass Peterborough.
Right, the problem here is that the routes from 470 have "wrong route" codes. You can't get *directly* to the Flyash line if you head into platform 4, so it's objecting. I need to change the test to check for the Flyash not being the next location. Mantis 17389.

VInce in post 95187 said:

It says it is booked via the Flyash line which it clearly isn't.
Did it say "booked via Peterborough Flyash Line"? That's the same issue - it's got Peterborough Flyash Line in its timetable, just further down.

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 19/05/2017 at 13:01 #95206
clive
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mark265 in post 95189 said:
I have had a play about with this and one option I thought might work was changing Peterborough Flyash Line to Peterborough and have platform as FAL, thinking that it stood for "Flyash Line" however I am finding that ARS wants to route trains with FAL as the platform into P4 and the driver will also call in wrong route.
FAL is indeed the Flyash Line and the ARS has a rule for that, so I'm not sure why you're seeing it. Indeed, I've just tried it myself and I get "3A01 requires manual route R421AS to be set" - that's the route into the Flyash line. But, yes, I do get the wrong route call - that needs fixing. Mantis 17391.

Last edited: 19/05/2017 at 13:02 by clive
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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 19/05/2017 at 13:11 #95207
clive
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mark265 in post 95192 said:

There does seen to be another inconsistency as well I created a test TT where the train went round the loop and returned to Peterborough S DS and had it change trains to another one ie 4A00 went round loop and returned to sim and stopped on PBO S DS and became 4A01, but the TD for 4A00 set the route into P4 at PBO
I can't reproduce that. Can you? If so, please save a game at the point you re-interpose 4A00 at signal 419.

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 19/05/2017 at 13:15 #95208
clive
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WesternChampion in post 95193 said:
I wonder if there is something wrong with the operation of the signalling in the Up direction along the Down Slow between Peterborough Station and Fletton. There are two signals, labelled 56R and 56. 56R has both main and subsidiary aspects, 56 is just a "shunt" signal. You can set a route from Sig 442 (Platform 4) or Sig 444 (Platform 5) to 56R but not to 56. You can set a route from 56 to the Fletton Loop. I cannot set a route from 56R at all.

Usually signals suffixed "R" are repeaters or "distants" for main signals, so I wouldn't expect to be able to set a route to them. Should the routes from 442 and 444 be to 56 rather than 56R?
No, this is correct and prototypical.

It's an odd situation. There is actually an unnumbered fixed red signal which marks the end of the main routes from 442 and 444. It has an associated exit button on the panel for these routes. Signal 56R, which is a repeater, is then mounted underneath it. Technically the red and the shunt aspects are unrelated. In the sim (I forget where I got this rule from, but I did talk to signallers at the PSB), 56R clears if 56 is off and the berth track circuit is occupied for 30 seconds. 56 itself has no approach control.

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 19/05/2017 at 14:03 #95212
WesternChampion
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Thanks for the explanation, Clive.

So the procedure would be to set a route from 442 or 444 to [unnumbered fixed red] and from 56 to Fletton and 56R will clear after 30 seconds. Would it be possible to include reference to this in the Wiki?

Chris

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 19/05/2017 at 15:53 #95215
mark265
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clive in post 95207 said:
mark265 in post 95192 said:

There does seen to be another inconsistency as well I created a test TT where the train went round the loop and returned to Peterborough S DS and had it change trains to another one ie 4A00 went round loop and returned to sim and stopped on PBO S DS and became 4A01, but the TD for 4A00 set the route into P4 at PBO
I can't reproduce that. Can you? If so, please save a game at the point you re-interpose 4A00 at signal 419.
It did the same again for me, save game attached, aswell as the custom TT I made for the test.

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 19/05/2017 at 16:05 #95216
mark265
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clive in post 95206 said:
mark265 in post 95189 said:
I have had a play about with this and one option I thought might work was changing Peterborough Flyash Line to Peterborough and have platform as FAL, thinking that it stood for "Flyash Line" however I am finding that ARS wants to route trains with FAL as the platform into P4 and the driver will also call in wrong route.
FAL is indeed the Flyash Line and the ARS has a rule for that, so I'm not sure why you're seeing it. Indeed, I've just tried it myself and I get "3A01 requires manual route R421AS to be set" - that's the route into the Flyash line. But, yes, I do get the wrong route call - that needs fixing. Mantis 17391.
Have done a save for this one aswell

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 19/05/2017 at 21:44 #95230
clive
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mark265 in post 95189 said:
I have had a play about with this and one option I thought might work was changing Peterborough Flyash Line to Peterborough and have platform as FAL, thinking that it stood for "Flyash Line" however I am finding that ARS wants to route trains with FAL as the platform into P4
This seems to be a generic ARS problem - when you interpose the description at 419, it generates ARS routes starting from the beginning of the timetable, not the current location.

Mantis 17392.

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 19/05/2017 at 22:31 #95231
GeoffM
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clive in post 95230 said:
mark265 in post 95189 said:
I have had a play about with this and one option I thought might work was changing Peterborough Flyash Line to Peterborough and have platform as FAL, thinking that it stood for "Flyash Line" however I am finding that ARS wants to route trains with FAL as the platform into P4
This seems to be a generic ARS problem - when you interpose the description at 419, it generates ARS routes starting from the beginning of the timetable, not the current location.

Mantis 17392.
Assuming you mean the train passes the same signals twice, albeit in opposite directions, and the TD disappears and has to be re-interposed, then this is a real world problem too - signallers just have to deal with it. The ARS has no idea whether this is the first time the train is in that berth or the second time - there is no history, and indeed could be confused by a second train with the same headcode later in the day.

Ticket rejected.

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Vintage Peterborough - Flyash issues 20/05/2017 at 08:56 #95234
clive
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GeoffM in post 95231 said:


Assuming you mean the train passes the same signals twice, albeit in opposite directions, and the TD disappears and has to be re-interposed, then this is a real world problem too - signallers just have to deal with it. The ARS has no idea whether this is the first time the train is in that berth or the second time - there is no history, and indeed could be confused by a second train with the same headcode later in the day.
Yes, that's the situation.

GeoffM in post 95231 said:

Ticket rejected.
Okay.

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