York summer 1991 timetable

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York summer 1991 timetable 29/06/2017 at 11:01 #96045
0D07
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Hi,

1st of all let me say brilliant timetable really good fantastic to play this has kept me occupied for hours like the 1991 West Hampstead one. Nice touch with the Immingham to Drax MGR's even if they didn't gain WTT paths till late 1997, You have missed a few trains off like the Rylstone to Hull Dairycoates "Tilcon" and the BP Chemicals Acid traffic from Hull SaltenD. That was not an issue I just created them from scratch. I have also noticed the RFD Connectrail trip from Tees Yard to Scunthorpe via Selby just dies at Selby does not come back on the panel on the Temple Hurst branch and also its show to be a tank train.

Like I say this is a fantasic sim really love the work that you guys have put into it, One thing that would be really good for future WTT's would be random light loco moves. I know in this day in age they only happen when they are really needed to happen. Back the day this was much the same but with spare men and loco moves and ferry drivers it would be nice to see the odd 0D01, 0D07, 0D53 or 0D60 or even the 0F54 or 0j03 Or nothbound 0N10, 0N32, 0N11 and so on at random times just something a bit different.

Also does anything ever go into Gascoigne Wood Down Side (The House coal side of the complex) I know from my time as a coal controller that coal was brought into the Down Side from the North East (Warldley and Butterwell) and some from Winterset when that re-opened as well some Nottinghamshire pits. This was brought in and sweetned up the Selby coal to make it more acceptable for the Aire Valley Power Stations and also a large amount of domestic grade coal left the site as well I just wondered if those trains feature in this WTT.

Like I say fantasic work and I really do like this WTT.

Delta zero seven.

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York summer 1991 timetable 29/06/2017 at 14:40 #96049
58050
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0D07 thanks for your cfomments about the timetable, appreciate that. However from all the BR stuff I have & as my time as a loco controller covering the Yorkshire/Humberside & East Midlands 6V14 Hull Saltend - Baglan Bay & return was booked via Thorne Jn & as a result wouldn't appear on this sim. When I do a 1991 timetable for Doncaster(when it's done & released that is) you'll see it on there. With regards to the coal at Gascoigne Wood the various MGR STNs I have for this period & other books I have don't reflect anything going into that side. SCN aka Speedlink Coal Network traffic in HEA wagons there are a couple of services that run between Scotland & Doncaster, but I haven't got anything showing this traffic going into Gascoigne Wood. If you've got anything then let me gave it & I'll be happy to add it in. The Hull Dairycoates - Rylstone - Hull Dairycoates aggregates train you mention which was worked by pairs of Cl.31/1 locos usually didn't appear in the WTTs or in the pile of WTT amendments or STNs I have for the early 1990s & without the actual timings it's difficult to find a slot for it, but not impossible to add in. Yes agreed ad-hoc LD movements doing break up the monotony a bit, but subject to which day you get vasries on which additional trains you get as there are a large number of additional/special trains that run only on certain days. I'll have a look to see if I've missed the return Connectrail service from Scunthorpe - Tees. The LD issue is a problem because unless you make the timetable to run for a specific week thy would change daily subject to requirements & or failures. In the late 1980s when I worked at Whitemoor TOPS there used to be a regular movement of locos from Immingham TMD - Peterborough & would return back to Immingham as D07 on a Sunday evening. These locos would cover some of the weekend ballast trains. Now I've done something similar in the York timetable as well as the LD movements from Healey Mills & Toton coming to York Yard North to work loaded MGR trains to Ratcliffe Power Station & Fiddlers Ferry Power Station. If there was a way whereby you could put some template schedules into the timetable & the core code could randomly trigger one to become active every now & then that would be alot more realistic & the variation in tracyion is an easy thing with decisions. In any event maybe as time goes on timetables will become better with more & more facilities to make them more realistic. This was the 1st timetable I wrote with the Train Crew Relief facility & to me this adds another dynamic to the timetable. Obviously 'the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow' option would be when the core can deal with random traction failures & a rescue loco is sent out from a specfic entry point such as a depot or yard etc. That then would make things interesting. In any event like West Hampstead 1991 this timetable isn't a finished product. If I get some additional info on things I've missed then ir will be added , tested & re-released, so watch this space. I'm currently working on 5 timetable projects ranging from 1981/82 through to 1987 & I'm sure when they are released you'll find them just as enjoyable as this York timetable. Feel free to PM me if you've got any info that I could use.
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York summer 1991 timetable 29/06/2017 at 15:05 #96051
postal
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58050 in post 96049 said:
If there was a way whereby you could put some template schedules into the timetable & the core code could randomly trigger one to become active every now & then that would be alot more realistic & the variation in tracyion is an easy thing with decisions.
Capability may be along soon (next version of loader) if I read recently updated Mantis #2035 and #7701 correctly.

"Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is a nobler art of leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of nonessentials." - Lin Yutang (10/10/1895 – 26/03/1976), Chinese writer, translator, linguist, philosopher and inventor.
Last edited: 29/06/2017 at 20:23 by postal
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York summer 1991 timetable 29/06/2017 at 20:20 #96059
Phil-jmw
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Many thanks for putting this timetable together 58050, I'm looking forward to trying it when I'm back home at the weekend, along with your 1991 West Hampstead TT, and the 1977 and 1985 TT's that Vince has supplied for Peterborough. I really do enjoy the heritage TT's, with their greater variety of traffic than exists today, and the extra locomotive and shunting moves that come from there being more loco-hauled trains and trip workings then than there are now. Thanks again for your hard work in getting these TT's out for us to enjoy.

Regards,

Phil.

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York summer 1991 timetable 30/06/2017 at 11:40 #96076
0D07
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Hi,

You are right re the Baglan Bay traffic and Spondon traffic running via Donny and the Old Road. There was also a flow to Mostyn Docks these ran as 6M62 loaded with a maximum trailing weight of 1450 for 37/5 and empty 6E39 with a maximum trailing weight of 1575 permitted. The Tilcon traffic 6E63, 6E42 & 6M39, 6M30 Ran with a maximum permitted weight of 2100 loaded with a pair of 37/5 and the same was authorized when empty for some reason. I have the section "YH" & "YJ" WTT's from this period and those trains are shown in the WTT's. I like you have a stack of amendments the only thing that I really missing and maybe you could help are the Trip notices for Immingham Depot? for 1990s period Just one would do.

I have some weekly coal plans from 1991/92 for the Aire Valley if these are any good to you I can send them to you in PDF format and you can use them as you require if you wanted to do another WTT for the same period and I do think at least one of the plans shows trains going into Gas Wood Down Side to discharge and then shunt across to the Up side and load up again for one of the power stations.

I get what you say about the random light loco moves it was just purely a thought. I know with work I think I started EWS after you had left the loco men often did light loco moves to balance areas that was running short caused by failures or places not giving locomotives back of exams and that is sometimes still the case now......

But again thank you for a brilliant sim and if you want the Weekly coal plans that I have then you are more than welcome to use them I have some from 1997 and 1998 and a lot later and also FLHH coal plans as well as the odd National Power one. I was going to be cheeky and ask if you had considered doing a 1997/8 WTT. As this was a boom time for freight traffic in the area with the Anglo Scottish Coal going crackers and the Entrprise Network spreading out and new traffic starting every week more or less. I understand that you are snowed under but it was just a thought.

Delta Zero Seven.

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York summer 1991 timetable 30/06/2017 at 17:14 #96082
58050
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Thanks for the offer of the stuff you have. Yes please I'd like a copy very much & if there's anything in those I'd add them into V9.0e of the York 1991 timetables. As afr as Trip Notices go I do have somewhere between 30-40 trip notices covering various areas of the country dating from 1975 through to 1994 which was pretty much when the trip notices finished being published by BR. As far as 1991 goes I do have a set of Trip Notices covering Tinlsey, Doncaster, Frodingham & Immingham depots & some of the info from them have been used in the creation of the York 1991 timetable along with some other trip notices covering Healey Mills, Thornaby & Tyne depots. I'm only really interested in doing BR era timetables although I did do the South Humberside 1997 timetable some time back. What I do have is a 24 hour TRUST printout for a day in 1197 for Milford Junction signalbox which lists all the trains that went past the box that day incl. any STP services as well as what was booked in the coal plan that week. Yes 1997/98 was a boom time as I was on the power desk in the CSDC then covering Yorkshire/Humberside & East Midlands & we had MGR trains running from Liverpool Bulk Terminal through to West Burton Power Station I remember going to the road bridge at Clay Cross Jn (as I only lived a couple of miles from it) to photograph one of these trains which came off the Erewash line with a Cl.56 on the front. As you've no doubt noticed in the 1991 timetable I've incl. The Anglo-Scottish MGR trains worked by Cl.56 locos from Scotland through to York Yard North & then re-engined with Cl.58 for there journey south as Yoton men only signed as far as York. If you PM me your e-mail address I can scan the Immingham TMD Trip Notice I have for 1991 if you want a copy of that & the Doncaster, Tinsley & Frodingham ones as well if your interested. I still collect Trip Notices along with WTTs, Freight train loads books etc etc to this day. Some stuff I get off e-bay & other stuff I get from railway contacts. You can't create a proper timetable without them, certainly for the BR era anyway.
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York summer 1991 timetable 01/07/2017 at 11:19 #96095
0D07
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58050,

Thank You I will drop you a PM very shortly with email addresses ect.

Yes I have noticed the Anglo Scottish MGR's and the one ones from Aire Valley being re engined at York it seemed that York was the limit for a few Depots back in the day Toton, Worksop, Immingham and Knottingley. Healey Mills men knew the road to Tyne Yard and Sunderland South Dock via Pelaw as on Saturday and Sunday they had loco ferry turn taking 56s off exam at Toton Up to Sunderland and brought south ones due over 'B' exam. As well as the booked engineers jobs and coal jobs to Tyne Yard.

Thanks,
Delta Zero Seven

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York summer 1991 timetable 03/07/2017 at 12:57 #96116
58050
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Just to advise those users who are playing this timetable, I intend in the not too distant future to re-vamp the MGR coal workings in this timetable following receipt of some additional information which I didn't have before. This will be released as V9.0e. Watch this space for further updates.
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York summer 1991 timetable 05/07/2017 at 20:50 #96153
chrisdmadd
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I have 6K56 and 6Z56 both enter and i think only one is supposed to. Same timing points, just a minor one though.

Excellent fun though great effort.

Last edited: 05/07/2017 at 20:59 by chrisdmadd
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York summer 1991 timetable 05/07/2017 at 22:12 #96156
58050
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Well I'm glad you're enjoying it. At present I'm completely re-doing the MGR trains from the Aire Valley Power Station/Yorkshire coalfields for this timetable following some MGR coal plans for 1991 cutosy of 0D07. I've already done 7 pages of them & just another 7 pages to go. The main difference so far is that there are now loaded MGR trains going into Selby Discharge aka Selby Stone Bunker which weren't in the original timetable plus other MGR trip services from Silverwood, Allerton Bywater, Dinnington, Malty, Murton & wearmouth collieries. The last 2 via York Yard North. I suspect that at the end of it the total number of trains in the timetable will be higher than it is now. However what all user need to be aware of is that the timings are taken from the MGR coal plan in terms of the enrty times in the sim & the arr/dep times at Selby New Mine. The usual time taken to enter the sim at Milford JN to the arrival pint at the bunker according to the MGR plan is 5 minutes & as a result all trains in & out of Selby New Mine ARE timed at 5 minutes. These cannot be aktered as we don't have any more specific timings for trains in that area. I'm sure that when the testers get V9.0e they will no doubt notify me of potential clashes ofg trains & as a result the bunker they are booked to will change. There's no reference in the MGR plan as which bunker they load at, either 4 or 7. What we do know is that all of the in coming loaded MGR trains discharge there coal in the Stone Bunker & they also involve the loco running round so the Gascoigne Wood screen will be busier than it is now. The other point I'll stress is that due to there very nature MGR trains aren't or don't have WTT schedules because the timings they chave change week vy week according to the coal orders from the power stations & if the Colliery at Gascoigne Wood becomes congested at any point doesn't mean that the timings are wrong. That's what we who worked on the BR freight side had to deal with on a daily basis & so I won't be altering any timings. It'll be a case of the user having to do his best at getting trains away for others to come to load unlike todats very insular railway where everything has it's booked path to follow. But at least it will give you a feel of what the railways in BR era at busy locations were like & what the staff had to do with the best of there ability. I hope to have all this squared up by the weekend where I shall r-mail the usual group who test my timetables the updated version.
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York summer 1991 timetable 12/07/2017 at 11:26 #96346
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Hopefully at some point today V9.0e will be sent out to the people who test my timetables & once that has been done V9.0e will be sent for moderator approval. That said however the work on V9.0f will start & this will be a mahor alteration in timetable creation. I'm looking at possibly doubling the number of passenger & parcels trains in the timetable & set decisions for each of these trains to develop a fault or fail in traffic whereby an assisting loco can be dispatch to go on the front & drag the failed service onwards. It's a lot easier for this to happen to passenger trains & the faulty train will arrive at York where the driver will report ythe train has failed & assistance is required. For eg: defective pantograph on Cl.91 or loss of power/engine shut down on a diesel. The alternative schedule with the same timings will have an activity at York whereby a loco of any choice of traction classes will wait for say 15-20 minutes before an assisting loco will come off York fuel point or York Tard North/South or possibly from another point outside the York signalling area & then attach onto the front of the defective train before that train continues on it's journey. This will obviously mean alot more planning going into where other trains will need to go in respect of platforming, but this will be alot more realistic as this happened quite alot on the real eailway back then. I'm not going to do this t the moment with freight traffic as I don't think we have the capability within SimSIg at the moment whereby a loco can stop at a junction & be sent wrong direction to go onto the front of a filed freight train. But having this issue with passenger & parcels traffic will certainly make the entertainment value of playing the timetable alot m,ore especially if you get a freight loco with no ETS dragging a failed passenger train. That will make the haulage bashers happy as that's something I've done many times in my railway career as a loco controller. Watch this space.
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York summer 1991 timetable 17/07/2017 at 21:22 #96462
Oddjob
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I am currently running this timetable and the following message appeared:
"1M10 being worked by CL.47/4+5Mk.2 coaches vice cl.158" is there something I need to be aware of and if so what is it?

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York summer 1991 timetable 17/07/2017 at 22:25 #96465
58050
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During this time the Cl.158s were being introduced, but obviously with anything new things don't go to plan & as a result these services were worked by Cl.47/4+5Mk.2 coaches vice a Cl.158 unit. It's really only a message for the signaller as the loco hauled train is longer than a 2 car or 3 car Cl.158 unit. You will also get similar messages regarding the depot allocation of cross sountry HST sets as they were based at Plymouth Laira(LA), St. Phillips Marsh, Bristol(PM) or Craigentinny, Edinburgh(EC). All these notes are just advisory, mainly for those of us who are/were spotters back then.
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York summer 1991 timetable 30/07/2017 at 23:21 #97738
58050
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V9.0e of the York summer 1991 timetable has been sent for moderator approval. The main chnge to this timetable in this version is the complete revision of the Aire Valley MGR coal traffic. I've used a copy of the March 1991 MGR coal plan for the area & as a result there have been some massive changes with all the trains going in & out of Gascoigne Wood Colliery aka Selby New Mine. Users need to bear in mind now that it is NOT necessary for the MGR trains going into the colliery have to stick to the road or bunker listed in the tt data. This is a shortfall with SimSig, in reality trains can load or unload in any of the bunkers(No.7, No.4 or Stone Bunker). Kev(KymriskaDraken) & I have both completed a 24 hour run through without too much difficulty at Gascoigne Wood Colliery. In reality the signaller there would get permission from the colliery as to what road to route the train on & in the MGR coal plan no designated bunker or road is shown as they can change daily. All the North Nottinghamshire MGR trains from the Worksop area now load in the Down Sdgs & exit from there & run via Hambleton South Jn & the ECML to Doncaster. Also 2 additional SCN(Speedlink Coal Services) have been added which weren't in the tt before & they to load in the Down Sdgs. A couple of things that have been reported on MANTIS prevent the back workings to run round in the Down Goods Loop. So for now you'll have to imagine that the train has run round off screen so the return working heads off from the Down Sdgs in the right direction. Kev & I have added in some 'shunt moves' involving 2 of York yard pilots, however due to paths being available for the 'TRANSFER PILOT' return workings you will for now only see the pilot running from York Yard South to the Parcels Sdgs(this too has been raised on MANTIS). I've added in approx. 9 additional MGR trains between Daelington/Eaglescliffe to York Yard North which are the inwards workings of MGR trains departing York Yard North for the power stations. Due to not having any MGR coal plans for the North East I've tt'd the trains to lay over at York Yard North for 2 hours prior to there next leg of there journeey. These trains run as 7Exx & originate at Murton, Wearmouth, Easington & Butterwell collieries. If users find that these trains get in the way of other trains please raise it on this thread & the timetable will be amended for V9.0f. V9.0f will be a major variation as I intend to double all the schedules in the timetable for Cl.1, Cl.2 & Cl.3 trains. The 2nd schedule will be for when the driver reports that the train is a failure & an assisting loco will be attached to the front at York station for the train to continue on its journey. There will be 6 blanket schedules for locos to come from York LHS, Church Fenton(Normanton Line) for a loco ex Knottingley TMD, Church Fenton(Leeds Line loco ex Holbeck/Neville Hill T&RSMD) or Shaftholme Jn(loco ex Doncaster TMD). This will then mean that the user signalling York will need to re-platform all the trains until such time as the failed train is rescued. Need to arefully consider the percentage chance of a failure based on the traction used as some traction units were more reliable than others. Can't do the freight yet as trying to send an assisting loco onto the front of a failed train as far as I am aware is not possible on SimSIg at present. Maybe one day hey. Also attached to this post is a scan copy of the Method of Working for trains at Gascoigne Wood Colliery which details how trains were dealt with at that location. Remember any issue please report them on this thread. Total number of trains now 1137.
Last edited: 30/07/2017 at 23:24 by 58050
Reason: correcting typo

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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 07:08 #97740
Danny252
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It seems the file had been uploaded to the wrong area - it's currently listed under User Contributed, rather than User Contributed>Timetables>York (where v9.0d is still available).
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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 08:51 #97741
58050
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OK, it was quite late last night & I'd been staring at the screen most of the day so probably my fault it didn't go in the right place. Maybe a moderator could move it to the right place. Now I've tried twice last night & once again this morning to upload on this post a pdf dcoument describing the Method of Working of Trains at Gascoigne Wood Colliery so users can better understand how & why the MGR trains are timetabled at Gascoigne Wood Colliery. But unfortunately it has failed every time with an error message. The pdf document is approx. 4.25Mb. I'll have to look at another way of uploading to the site so users can download it if they wish.
Last edited: 31/07/2017 at 09:11 by 58050
Reason: correct spelling mistake

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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 09:10 #97743
58050
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I also get the same error message when I try & upload this pdf document to the file depository. If someone out there knows how to get this pdf document to upload onto this website can they PM me & I'll send it to them to sort out. The document is only 7 pages long. It covers the Rapid Loading Bunkers, Stone Bunker Line & Import Station/Discharge Sdgs.
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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 10:39 #97750
58050
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The following trains need the 'Path' code changing at Longlands Jn from SL to ULS or else ARS sets up the wrong route & the Cl.7 sits at 472 signal.
7E94 23:55 SX MGR Easington Colliery - York Yard North (FEEN TO Cl.56+36 loaded MGR wagons)
7E87 18:55 TThO MGR Easington Colliery - York Yard North (FEEN TO Cl.56+36 loaded MGR wagons)

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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 10:42 #97751
headshot119
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Danny252 in post 97740 said:
It seems the file had been uploaded to the wrong area - it's currently listed under User Contributed, rather than User Contributed>Timetables>York (where v9.0d is still available).
I've moved the file.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 11:08 #97752
58050
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Karl if I e-mail you the Method of working of trains at Selby New Mine I wonder whether you'd be able to upload it onto the part of the forum where the list of LD headcodes were put? Or whether you'd be able to upload on here so users can download it?
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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 11:35 #97753
headshot119
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Fire it across.
"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 13:53 #97756
58050
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At present the Method of Working for the Stone Bunkers, Rapid Loading Bunkers & Import Station/Discharge Sdgs. Therefore if any users are interested in getting a copy of this document so they will be more familiar in how Gascoigne Wood operates then PM me & I'll attach it to a return message. Approx. 4.25Mb in size(7 pages).
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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 17:04 #97758
58050
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Yet again 6L38 Leeds Area possesion train SOW - York Yard South (FPCI IM Cl.47/3+assorted 2 axle & bogie Dept'l wagons+FPCI IM Cl.47/3) which enters on the Down Hull(Micklefield) & recesses in the Gascoigne Wood Down Goods Loop arr. 04:33 dep. 04:38 neesds the route to Sherburn set manually or else if ARS does it it sets the wrong route.Apologise for that.
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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 18:40 #97759
AndyG
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58050 in post 97756 said:
At present the Method of Working for the Stone Bunkers, Rapid Loading Bunkers & Import Station/Discharge Sdgs. Therefore if any users are interested in getting a copy of this document so they will be more familiar in how Gascoigne Wood operates then PM me & I'll attach it to a return message. Approx. 4.25Mb in size(7 pages).
Extract of most relevant paragraphs attached (4k).

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I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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York summer 1991 timetable 31/07/2017 at 19:02 #97760
headshot119
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Original document attached.
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