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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 05/10/2017 at 19:22 #102055
Carl_
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Has anyone thought of going down the road of having a Vatsim/FlightSimX type relationship with Simsig and Trainsim. With Simsigers controlling the signals for people playing on train sim. Yes I understand there wont be hardly anyone on at any one time but it sounds like a good idea and you could arrange hosts and sims in much the same way as now so people know when signals are controlled by human or bot.
It would be good if you had to speak (via TS) to drivers about TCF's and Signal lamp failures and regulating and other problems. It would bring everything seriously into the real world, yes there would be inevitable problems with Drivers deliberately SPAD'ing and signallers not clearing signals in good time etc.
It would however take a long time to make and perfect and would most like raise the price of TrainSimulator by 10 fold, if you even managed to get them to do it. But if it were to happen then people on train sim on say the London-Peterborough line would be signalled by Simsigers from KGX and Peterborough. And then (when the appropriate routes etc are released) trains could be controlled all the way from KGX to Edinburgh and beyond. It would require a devotion from simsigers to do hosts and might require a lot of people to fill panels.
Just a thought however, thought it would be pretty cool.

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 06/10/2017 at 08:29 #102056
Tomiexpress
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14 posts
Idea is good, but even when someone prepare both sim to work together, There will always be a troll that spoils the fun, We do this in this project : http://eu07.kolej.org.pl/
Human behavior is .... heavy

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 06/10/2017 at 10:52 #102059
sunocske
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56 posts
Hm, wasz projekt jest bardzo interesujący!

Cześć z Węgier

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 06/10/2017 at 11:32 #102060
Tomiexpress
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sunocske in post 102059 said:
Hm, wasz projekt jest bardzo interesujący!

Cześć z Węgier :)
Dzięki i cześć z Gdyni

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The following user said thank you: sunocske
Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 06/10/2017 at 12:10 #102062
sorabain
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62 posts
Tomiexpress in post 102056 said:
Idea is good, but even when someone prepare both sim to work together, There will always be a troll that spoils the fun, We do this in this project : http://eu07.kolej.org.pl/
Human behavior is .... heavy
I've thought about this a bit. I think you'd need some kind of "AI second man" in the cab that will apply the emergency brakes if you're going an inappropriate speed (ideally after a few hints/warnings that unless you start braking soon you're going to be in emergency application territory).

Similarly the AI second man would take control if you're going too slow (trolling by holding people up or trying to block station throats).

the way i see it is that you get a few warnings, but if you don't heed them you get taken off the service/banned from driving for a while. Possibly also need to get "promotions" to qualify you to drive different classes of services. Stuck shunting in sidings to begin with, if you don't mess that up then some short trip freights, etc. If you mess around you get degraded and have to grind a bit again before you're allowed back on the mainline.

I'm sure trolls will get creative, but an AI second man should stop a lot of things, and you can always have a server admin (assuming this runs as instances where someone will own the machine it's on and likely be online or deputize someone) who can jump in and ditch someone if they find gaps.

Similarly if noone's around you fill up with pure AI services and ARS.

All in all a nice sounding idea but a massively huge amount of work predicated on a commercial company providing an open stable protocol for attaching external signal control and monitoring position etc., then re-doing every released line to implement the various track circuits for detection etc.

Probably best to hope they get multiplayer working in Train Sim World first, although i've not yet bought that due to a great deal of negative reviews and lack of content. Given that i stopped buying DLC for legacy Train Sim (expecting it to be obsolete) i wouldn't want to be in the developer's shoes right now (i.e. i expect their revenue streams have dried up with an underperforming new product and fans not buying legacy anymore), so I can't see them wanting to add or integrate signal simulations for many years (if ever).

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 06/10/2017 at 12:19 #102063
sorabain
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62 posts
Tomiexpress in post 102056 said:
Idea is good, but even when someone prepare both sim to work together, There will always be a troll that spoils the fun, We do this in this project : http://eu07.kolej.org.pl/
Human behavior is .... heavy
Had a quick look at this project. Found some screenshots on a twitter feed that looked impressive. If it's multiplayer with trains + signals simulated realistically then very well done. Would love to hear what the trolls get up to and what you do to try and mitigate it.

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 06/10/2017 at 13:24 #102064
Tomiexpress
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sorabain in post 102063 said:
Tomiexpress in post 102056 said:
Idea is good, but even when someone prepare both sim to work together, There will always be a troll that spoils the fun, We do this in this project : http://eu07.kolej.org.pl/
Human behavior is .... heavy
Had a quick look at this project. Found some screenshots on a twitter feed that looked impressive. If it's multiplayer with trains + signals simulated realistically then very well done. Would love to hear what the trolls get up to and what you do to try and mitigate it.
Yes it is full multi, and about trolls.. observe behavior of user then warning ( by admin ) and ip ban .
What they do? mostly - disconnect loco and cars, alias driver not respect speed limits (derail), signlals (spads),spaming in game chat
alias dispatcher - violence instructions of traffic reg. ( eg. no ask for free way for train before send it in section), not know how operate signalbox alias dispatcher ( mosty don know how set up route, dont know specificy of signalbox or area ( direction, traction etc ), acoa

view eg. as driver https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rky4rot6uN8
as dispatcher https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHlazV428Qg


sorry my english

Last edited: 06/10/2017 at 14:12 by Tomiexpress
Reason: None given

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 06/10/2017 at 19:52 #102066
Danny252
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Tomiexpress in post 102064 said:
observe behavior of user then warning ( by admin ) and ip ban .
Given that almost every internet provider hands out a new IP every time a customer connects, at least in the UK, an IP ban is rarely effective. Many of the cases where an IP is permanent correspond to large customers with many individual users (e.g. blocks of flats) - hence why practically every school on the planet seems to be banned from editing Wikipedia!

One can block user accounts, but then they simply make more; one could try to block certain email accounts from registering, but there are email providers dedicated to giving out temporary email addresses for only a few clicks. If someone really enjoys annoying other people, it's very difficult to conclusively keep them out.

Luckily, many quickly get bored!

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 06/10/2017 at 20:11 #102067
mark265
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Danny252 in post 102066 said:
Tomiexpress in post 102064 said:
observe behavior of user then warning ( by admin ) and ip ban .
Given that almost every internet provider hands out a new IP every time a customer connects, at least in the UK, an IP ban is rarely effective. Many of the cases where an IP is permanent correspond to large customers with many individual users (e.g. blocks of flats) - hence why practically every school on the planet seems to be banned from editing Wikipedia!

One can block user accounts, but then they simply make more; one could try to block certain email accounts from registering, but there are email providers dedicated to giving out temporary email addresses for only a few clicks. If someone really enjoys annoying other people, it's very difficult to conclusively keep them out.

Luckily, many quickly get bored!
I hate to disagree with you but I am in the UK and I have tended to keep the same IP for the majority of the time (Its changed for me about 2-3 times in the last 7 years, and I use cable) if you are using wi-fi hotsopts or mobile internet then I agree it does change often, I used mobile internet several years ago and every time I connected I got a different IP.

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 07/10/2017 at 01:23 #102071
P*Funk
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Tomiexpress in post 102056 said:
There will always be a troll that spoils the fun
As someone who controls on VATSIM the number of people deliberately spoiling the fun is actually minimal. The real issue is incompetence of pilots. You'd have a SPAD fest every hour. You'd set the points and trains would take their sweet time and stop on top of them. It'd be way more frustrating since on VATSIM at least incompetence is sharing a massive sky that anyone can navigate as they see fit, or as the controller sees fit. Not so much with rails.

Still, with a decently well school group of people and a relatively smallish track area I think it could be grand. You'd actually have way more fun with doing yard scenarios, shunting, preparing trains for departure, etc. Of course there is another problem. Train Sim is horribly programmed for actual realistic train activities. You can't even do a simple run around in Train Sim and that's been true for years of development. I don't think its any better in the new Train Sim World either.

There's a real disconnect between the kind of realism SimSig is trying to create and what they're doing with the loco driver sims. They're basically set up to be linear scenarios of very limited design, mostly just driving point A to point B, and not the open ended way trains would work in multiplay. Just recreating a few moves in Train Sim from some WTTs in SimSig proved impossible and would be in fact the most interesting things to orchestrate in such a multiplayer environment.

It would take either a significant coding changes to Train Sim or a much more complicated paper based manifest system and even then there are issues with trains correctly coupling to things now and then if they're not on the schedule.

Last edited: 07/10/2017 at 01:26 by P*Funk
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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 07/10/2017 at 05:11 #102072
Hawk777
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268 posts
Run8 is a train simulator that has proper signalling logic in it plus an open TCP port for an external signalling UI to plug in, and is considered quite realistic in terms of train physics and driving. It’s also multiplayer. It only covers a little bit of North American territory currently, though.
Last edited: 07/10/2017 at 05:12 by Hawk777
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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 07/10/2017 at 20:01 #102084
ThatManCalledAr
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Hawk777 in post 102072 said:
Run8 is a train simulator that has proper signalling logic in it plus an open TCP port for an external signalling UI to plug in, and is considered quite realistic in terms of train physics and driving. It’s also multiplayer. It only covers a little bit of North American territory currently, though.
Can you please explain to me how I download the main Run8 file? Either it's because I'm tired after only 1hrs sleep or my eyes just aren't working..but I cannot find the main download button!

The Welsh contingent. Also known as 88E.
Last edited: 07/10/2017 at 20:51 by headshot119
Reason: language

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 11/10/2017 at 00:04 #102157
GeoffM
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3568 posts
Carl_ in post 102055 said:
Has anyone thought of going down the road of having a Vatsim/FlightSimX type relationship with Simsig and Trainsim.
A long time ago now (11 years?) I was involved in Kuju's train simulator and spent a day with them advising them on how signalling worked. Unfortunately they were already way down the development path with a fundamentally flawed model and they were more interested in the 3d models having the right number of rivets than getting the signalling to work properly. I did try to encourage them to open up an interface, like SimSig does, to link such systems but, again, they were not interested.

For my day of free professional advice I got my name in a long list of credits. Only ever played it once on a friend's computer. Not even a free or discounted copy of the game.

SimSig Boss. Website issues: Check here first: https://www.simsig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=newwebsite
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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 11/10/2017 at 13:56 #102168
Steamer
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GeoffM in post 102157 said:
Carl_ in post 102055 said:
Has anyone thought of going down the road of having a Vatsim/FlightSimX type relationship with Simsig and Trainsim.
A long time ago now (11 years?) I was involved in Kuju's train simulator and spent a day with them advising them on how signalling worked. Unfortunately they were already way down the development path with a fundamentally flawed model and they were more interested in the 3d models having the right number of rivets than getting the signalling to work properly. I did try to encourage them to open up an interface, like SimSig does, to link such systems but, again, they were not interested.
I assume you're referring to Microsoft Train Simulator (MSTS)?

If so, that would explain a lot. Fortunately, a (relatively) large and dedicated community has modified it to within an inch of its life over the years, with the result that you can get a reasonably good experience out of it. A number of signal kits have been produced to save us from the laughable semaphores supplied with the default S&C route, though as you say the underlying model limits what can be done.

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 11/10/2017 at 14:40 #102169
Danny252
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I suspect he means Kuju's own Rail Simulator (MSTS is much older than "11 years ago"!), which later evolved into the whole RailWorks/Train Simulator 20xx franchise. However, the whole point about the default signals being laughable and the underlying signalling system is limited applies to both that and the Trainz franchise.
Last edited: 11/10/2017 at 14:45 by Danny252
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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 11/10/2017 at 15:41 #102171
Steamer
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Danny252 in post 102169 said:
I suspect he means Kuju's own Rail Simulator (MSTS is much older than "11 years ago"!), which later evolved into the whole RailWorks/Train Simulator 20xx franchise. However, the whole point about the default signals being laughable and the underlying signalling system is limited applies to both that and the Trainz franchise.
Ah, OK. I've never played Train Simulator 20xx, but from the clips I've seen the signalling/general operating realism looks a lot more realistic than other efforts?

Quote:
(MSTS is much older than "11 years ago"!)
*Works out that 11 years ago was only 2006*

Blimey...

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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 11/10/2017 at 18:29 #102173
GeoffM
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Danny252 in post 102169 said:
I suspect he means Kuju's own Rail Simulator (MSTS is much older than "11 years ago"!), which later evolved into the whole RailWorks/Train Simulator 20xx franchise. However, the whole point about the default signals being laughable and the underlying signalling system is limited applies to both that and the Trainz franchise.
Yes. As it was a while ago I may be misremembering this but I believe Kuku were developing MSTS (2?) for Microsoft but one day MS decided to pull the plug and emptied Kuju's building of all MSTS material, models, code, etc. So Kuju decided to go it alone anyway, presumably because they thought they had the skills. Something like that.

SimSig Boss. Website issues: Check here first: https://www.simsig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=newwebsite
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Merging Simsig with TrainSimulator 15/10/2017 at 09:26 #102268
Hawk777
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ThatManCalledAr in post 102084 said:
Can you please explain to me how I download the main Run8 file? Either it's because I'm tired after only 1hrs sleep or my eyes just aren't working..but I cannot find the main download button!
You go to the Run 8 Studios website and click the BUY IT NOW link just below the photos and the big logo. In case it wasn’t clear, Run 8 has nothing to do with SimSig; it’s an independent product, made by an AFAIK unrelated company, for railways in a different country, which just happens to have apparently very realistic driving and signalling, and which has the ability to plug in external signalling software. I suspect that’s probably about as far as I ought to go on this subject on SimSig’s forum.

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