Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points

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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 02:02 #103302
whatlep
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376 posts 		Please see attached files re this query/ possible bug. At 08.00, the block is clear from Warrington to Glazebrook and the clearing point indication suggests that 17 points should be free to be moved. They cannot be.

In the second file, the block has been restored to normal on the up line which freed 17 points and 16 signal to be cleared. When the train enters the up line, the block automatically goes to "train on line", though there is nothing in the section between Warrington 49 signal and Glazebrook 32 signal. The block then has to be cancelled , but will not show "line clear" until 17 points are normalised.

Are these various features correct?
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 14:13 #103319
Ar88
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310 posts 		whatlep in post 103302 said:
When the train enters the up line, the block automatically goes to "train on line", though there is nothing in the section between Warrington 49 signal and Glazebrook 32 signal.
You've just said that the train has entered the block, & you're also saying that there is nothing in the block (when a train has entered it)?

With no overlap point, it would surely be safe protocol to NOT be able to set the route in front AGAINST an approaching train - you don't accept a train on the single-line if there is no safe over-run incase of a SPAD.
The Welsh contingent. Aron, or Ar to mates. Also known as 88E or ThatManCalledAr.
Last edited: 25/11/2017 at 14:14 by Ar88
Reason: Added a bit more text
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 16:14 #103324
Chromatix
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190 posts 		This is one of several reasons why single lines have particularly low traffic capacity. Modern TCB installations are luxury - LUXURY, I tell you!
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 16:40 #103325
KymriskaDraken
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963 posts 		whatlep in post 103302 said:
Please see attached files re this query/ possible bug. At 08.00, the block is clear from Warrington to Glazebrook and the clearing point indication suggests that 17 points should be free to be moved. They cannot be.

In the second file, the block has been restored to normal on the up line which freed 17 points and 16 signal to be cleared. When the train enters the up line, the block automatically goes to "train on line", though there is nothing in the section between Warrington 49 signal and Glazebrook 32 signal. The block then has to be cancelled , but will not show "line clear" until 17 points are normalised.

Are these various features correct?
Looking at the track circuits it appears that the clearing point from Warrington to Glazebrook is in advance of GE101. If the Block from Warrington to Glazebrook is at Line Clear points 17 must be locked and maintained Normal as they are within the clearing point. However, I suspect that the clearing point is in the wrong place as it only needs to be 200yd past the home signal as all signals are colour lights.

Mantis 18530 raised for developer to check.
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 17:17 #103327
headshot119
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4869 posts 		KymriskaDraken in post 103325 said:
whatlep in post 103302 said:
Please see attached files re this query/ possible bug. At 08.00, the block is clear from Warrington to Glazebrook and the clearing point indication suggests that 17 points should be free to be moved. They cannot be.

In the second file, the block has been restored to normal on the up line which freed 17 points and 16 signal to be cleared. When the train enters the up line, the block automatically goes to "train on line", though there is nothing in the section between Warrington 49 signal and Glazebrook 32 signal. The block then has to be cancelled , but will not show "line clear" until 17 points are normalised.

Are these various features correct?
Looking at the track circuits it appears that the clearing point from Warrington to Glazebrook is in advance of GE101. If the Block from Warrington to Glazebrook is at Line Clear points 17 must be locked and maintained Normal as they are within the clearing point. However, I suspect that the clearing point is in the wrong place as it only needs to be 200yd past the home signal as all signals are colour lights.

Mantis 18530 raised for developer to check.
No the clearing point is the termination of GE16 track. The block lets you knock out as soon as that track is clear.

No information was obtainable as to whether blocking back inside was required to use the crossover reverse. Either way you shouldn't swing those points reverse with the block at Line Clear, and you shouldn't accept a train with the points reverse, so the simulation is working fine.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 17:24 #103328
jc92
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3629 posts 		I wouldnt have thought blocking back wouldnt be required unless a train is brought to a stand inside the clearing point. Reversing the points alone shouldnt require it, nor should a train moving within the clearing point.
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Last edited: 25/11/2017 at 17:25 by jc92
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 17:36 #103329
KymriskaDraken
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963 posts 		You can fiddle with the points as much as you like with the block at Normal. But once you peg Line Clear you can't move them until the train has either passed clear, or stopped at the Home Signal. You only need to block back if something will come to a stand within the clearing point.


Kev
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 18:24 #103334
whatlep
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376 posts 		Thanks for the two detailed answers. Most interesting. My Sectional Appendix indicates that the points are at 24m53ch (24 miles 1166 yards) while Glazebrook station is at 24m37ch (24 + 814 yards) with a platform length of 98 yards. Even assuming the station location is halfway along the platform and signal right at the end of the ramp, it would be pretty tight between signal and crossing, though more than the minimum 200 metres / 220 yards.

Anyway, it makes the 1989 simulation I'm preparing that bit more tricky. Good!
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 18:44 #103337
pedroathome
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887 posts
Online 		whatlep in post 103302 said:
Please see attached files re this query/ possible bug. At 08.00, the block is clear from Warrington to Glazebrook and the clearing point indication suggests that 17 points should be free to be moved. They cannot be.

In the second file, the block has been restored to normal on the up line which freed 17 points and 16 signal to be cleared. When the train enters the up line, the block automatically goes to "train on line", though there is nothing in the section between Warrington 49 signal and Glazebrook 32 signal. The block then has to be cancelled, but will not show "line clear" until 17 points are normalised.

Are these various features correct?

On this first part, if line clear is given, it SHOULD NOT be possible to swing the points. I realise that lever 17 can be swung, and depending on weather a route is set from Warrington central 49 signal, the points will or will not swing. Additionally when the points have been reversed, that line clear can be given. These have been fixed for the next update (1.0.4), where the only way to swing the points will be to have the block in its Normal position.

Of course, if Signal 32 was passed at danger with Points 17 reversed, I'd imagine that at very least it would be a new set of points given they are right on top of the signal.

Secondly, if track 14 becomes occupied while points 17 are reversed, it will longer put the block to TOL. If said points are Normal, it will put the block to TOL, as this is most likely a runaway.

I think essentially after this first point, Karl has summed up the remainder of the points.

James
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 18:52 #103338
Danny252
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1461 posts 		Per this photo, signal 32 is right on top of points 17.

headshot119 in post 103327 said:
No the clearing point is the termination of GE16 track.
Is "GE16 track" a typo? F11 does not list any track circuit by the name of "TGE16", and the box pictures I can find match the Simsig TC numbers. Your response to Kev said the clearing point is not signal 101, implying you meant T14 and not T18, but T14 only gives a clearing point of only ~70 yards (it ends at signal 18 as shown, which is again right by the points - 220 yards would be past the box).
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 19:48 #103340
KymriskaDraken
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963 posts 		Danny252 in post 103338 said:
Per this photo, signal 32 is right on top of points 17.

headshot119 in post 103327 said:
No the clearing point is the termination of GE16 track.
Is "GE16 track" a typo? F11 does not list any track circuit by the name of "TGE16", and the box pictures I can find match the Simsig TC numbers. Your response to Kev said the clearing point is not signal 101, implying you meant T14 and not T18, but T14 only gives a clearing point of only ~70 yards (it ends at signal 18 as shown, which is again right by the points - 220 yards would be past the box).
I think it's a typo. Karl wrote TGE14 on mantis, and that's the one that runs over the points.

Kev
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Clearance Point/ Train On Line activation on up line issues with Glazebrook 17 points 25/11/2017 at 20:11 #103341
KymriskaDraken
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963 posts 		Danny252 in post 103338 said:
Per this photo, signal 32 is right on top of points 17.
Yes, that does look a bit less than 200m.

Kev
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