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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded

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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 Version 1.04 - uploaded 02/02/2018 at 12:58 #105645
VInce
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Hi all,

The final revision of Peterborough 1977 Version 1.04 has been uploaded and is currently waiting approval.

Extensive notes are provided under the "General" tab in the timetable and are repeated below...note there are possession screenshot files attached to this post.

My sincere thanks to the following :-

Peter Bennet for writing the original 1977 Friday only timetable which gave me a platform to work from.
Postal, for pointing me in the direction of an on line resource which enabled me to get the passenger train formations correct.
58050 for help and suggestions
Barry Millner for helping with the last few weeks of testing - it was a big help to have another pair of eyes look it over.

Firstly, an important note:-

In this timetable there are a significant number of trains of Classes 7, 8, 9, 0 which do not have detailed timings. All of these types of trains were not in the WTT but were published in things like weekly ballast train circulars, special traffic notices and local area manager arrangements. It was the signaller's job to fit these in amongst regular traffic without causing delays and so it is with this timetable


These are, in general, engineering train movements to and from possessions, LD moves after working trains, local trips and their light engine movements, shunts around the station area and the like.

ARS does not like untimed trains for obvious reasons. There was no ARS in 1977 and it was never fitted in reality at Peterborough so, if you wish to use ARS with this timetable then I would advise most strongly that you ensure it is disabled for Class 7, 8, 9, 0 and "other" trains before you start the timetable. For a start its more fun - you get to make the decisions on what gets priority and you also save yourself the job of having to right click on and disable ARS manually on each train.

To disable ARS for the those trains go to Options/ARS and uncheck the appropriate boxes. Then shut down and restart Simsig and those settings will be active UFN.

A word of advice - run the timetable at a speed you are comfortable with - don't rush it. It has been extensively tested over many weeks in a variety of different scenarios to shake out as many errors as possible. However, there are so many variables in the timetable it is impossible to find every one and if you do find one, or indeed need any questions answering, please respond in this thread.

The Choices & Decisions system will determine the following:

1) The day of the week

2) Traction for certain ECML and Birmingham - Norwich trains (DMU or loco hauled)

3) The entrance point out of Peterborough Up Yard i.e. Shunt Line (SL) or Yard Departure Line (YD)

4) In some cases whether a train tuns Class 6, 7 or 8.

5) In some cases where a trip runs runs to.

This is a real world timetable - I tried to make this to look, feel and smell like 1977. Signallers did not regulate trains according to the WTT. If they were ready, and there was a path for them then they went - often very early. There was no asking other boxes if they would accept it as they reciprocated this policy too. I have used the excellent new train crew dwell times so as some traincrew are in place and ready should their train run early so as it can continue on its way which is a much more realistic scenario. Traincrew in 1977 were always keen to get going in the direction of home and if they could do that early so much the better.

The timetable is constructed in this way:-

1) All passenger trains will take up most of their full station allowance even when they are late as the the Simsig defaults have been over-ridden for each train.

2) Parcel and mail trains all take their full allowance in the station for loading and unloading so if one of the Postal trains is platformed late, it will still take its full time to load (or in the case of terminating trains, unload) and will thus leave late.

3) Three vans are stabled for most of the day in Platform 1. These vans take parcels "transfer traffic" to and from other trains for the north. They are attached to an early morning departure and then a replaced by three detached from an overnight southbound train. After they have been positioned they will show "no timetabled trips" in your F2 list. This is normal as they don't actually move anywhere. The station pilot (T04) stables in P1 between jobs too.

4) Only under extreme conditions should you re-platform a train marked POSTAL. Replatformings of these trains had to be agreed with the local PO manager on the night as he would have arranged for all of the mail to be on the correct platform for loading. It would be a significant job to move all of this to another platform.

5) In this timetable the "Nene Valley Railway" masquerades as the British Sugar Corporation Works on Oundle Road - see here. https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/48/BSC.htm
Similarly, license has been exercised in relation to the siding at Offord which is not simulated. 6/7/8B34 should detach at Offord, but in the timetable it does so at St. Neots Down Sidings, as close as I could get.

6) Locos for the early morning London starting trains are inter-worked with locos arriving off overnight workings. Normally there is reasonable time for this to happen but should things get disrupted, you will need to move these engines around smartly to minimise delay.

7) All trains entering Sandy Down sidings need the handpoints reverse to enter, normal for exit.

8) 1977 was the first year in which loco-hauled trains replaced DMUs between Birmingham and Norwich. However DMU substitutions occurred on a daily basis as a result of failures and stock shortages. The UID suffix on the F2 list will tell you which trains are loco-hauled and which are DMU e.g. ZEH731DMU or ZQS557LH.

9) If using ARS, 5B49SO 0905 EDMU Hitchin - Biggleswade via Sandy (reverse) on arrival at Biggleswade, due to a sim limitation, the train description does not update from 5B49 to 2H94. This will have to be done manually otherwise ARS will not pick up the train.

10) Two pairs of trains use Ward's Sidings. No 10 trip and 6E34 1957 Castle Bromwich - Ketton Wards Cement. Both will sneak up on you if you are not vigilant and will stand at Ketton No. 3 signal (not shown on the sim) waiting for you to operate the GF. Keep your eye on the trains entering the system and also the F2 Trains List. While they are standing at K3 signal, they block the Up Stamford. You will need to be alert for their next workings leaving the sidings too.

11) Several On-Track Machine Movements run in this timetable They all have the reporting number 7Z06 and for the purposes of the sim can be considered as guaranteed to operate track circuits which, however, would not have been typical at this time. Should you know the rules and regulations concerning the movement of OTM not guaranteed to operate track circuits there is nothing to stop you re-coding them to 7Z09, the generic reporting number of such trains and moving them in accordance with those rules.

12) You may occasionally get a stand off between the Loco Sidings Down Side entry point and and the Shunt Line from the Yard. To resolve this you will need to either shunt the loco from the yard to the shunt spur to clear, then manually reverse it or run it to P2 and reverse it onto the shed that way.

13) Should you refuse to accept a train from Nene Sidings they will not take one off you until you do accept it which can often cause a standoff. Some fancy shunting in the station is then required.

14) Since the previous version it has come to light that propelling in the station area was only permitted with a brake vehicle (BSK, BCK, BSO, BFO or GUV-type) as the first or second vehicle in the direction of travel. Some ECS workings have now been amended to require the use of the Station Pilot engine (T04) or the Nene Sidings Pilot engine (T03)

15) As per the WTT, all sleeper trains in this timetable run at 80mph although the stock was passed for a higher speed. In reality, sleeper trains ran at this speed unless delayed more than 15min which case they ran at 90mph. Similarly postal trains (i.e. those conveying Post Office staff in a sorting vehicle (POS or NSV)) also ran at 80mph. This was for the comfort of the Post Office staff as it was known that the ride on the Mk 1 sorting vehicles got a bit lively at over 80mph!

16) 9T19 propels a brakevan to Huntingdon to pick up a defective wagon from Siding No.1 and it uses both of Huntingdon's Down Sidings. In the schedules the sidings are shown as platforms, No 1 siding is the one immediately behind Platform 3. No.2 is the other.

17) Possessions : The possession trains and on-track machines that run in the Saturday timetable are typical of the time. In the weekend engineering circulars, they were only given the barest of timetables too with just a departure time and sometimes an arrival time so that is the case in this timetable too. Timetabled trains are diverted via the slow lines but not retimed so they will run late but their engineering time allowance should take care of that before leaving the sim. The Saturday timetable ends at 0200 (2600) Sunday and when the last timetabled train has run you can shut down the sim leaving the possession trains berthed where they stand.

The possession trains are provided but you need to take the possessions yourself at 2200. Remember, signals are not operated in possessions thus ARS must be switched off, and the PICOP (you!) must authorise all movements. An important point is that you must not set routes within possessions and all points must be moved manually. You can use the Incident Control Panel (F11) to get trains to pass the next signals at danger and pause trains to position them appropriately.

Below is the extract from a "Weekend Engineering Circular" for your possession trains with details on how to position them.

Possession U&DFL St. Neots - Sandy from 2200. Possession Limits are P312 to K768 UFL and K765 to P311 DFL. Possession train 8K50 waits at P312 until the possession is taken and proceeds to site of work at Sandy station. The train requires to run UFL to Sandy South and then set back through the crossover and stand on the DFL whilst reballasting work takes place on the UFL. Two on-track machines move to Sandy Up and Down sidings earlier in the evening ready to start work after the stone-drop has been completed.

Possession U&DFL Werrington Jcn - Little Bytham from 2200. Possession Limits are P503 to P579 DFL and P582 to P502 DFL. Work is tamping and picking up rails at Tallington. A tamper leaves Peterborough Spur and stands at P503 until the possession is taken, then runs to site at Tallington, crosses to the UFL via the main/main crossover and sets back to work between Tallington North and South. The tamper is timetabled to Tallington and after that you will neeed to move it manually by abandoning the timetable and positioning it using the F11 screen and the "pause train" facility. After this has been accomplished, possession train 9K51 is admitted to the possession at P503 and runs to site working between Tallington South and North on the DFL unloading new rail and picking up scrap rails from the DFL cess. You will need to abandon timetable at Tallington and positon this manually too

Possession Up&Down Stamford Slow from 2130. Possession Limits P471 to fouling point 1267B points on the Down Stamford and Fouling point 1267A points to P470 on the up Stamford. No trains working in the possession - New England North Junction available to cross trains.

Pictures of how your panel might look after all trains have been positioned are attached. For clarity, only the entrance and exit to possessions are shown as "blocked" with the light blue colouring and the symbol XXX indicates detonator protection and flags. I have done my best to remember all of the detail about possessions and their protection according to the rule book in 1977 but my memory may not be what it was and there may be some aspects of what is shown in the pictures that some would take issue with, particularly concerning crossovers which give access to the line under possession. I can't remember whether detonator protection was necessary or whether the points were just clipped and padlocked and the key held by the PIC - but it was 40 years ago so please forgive me!

I am aware there (probably) should be a set of det/flags on the down slow/fast connection at St. Neots. I missed these - sorry.

Enjoy!

Vince

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Last edited: 02/02/2018 at 12:59 by VInce
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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 02/02/2018 at 15:31 #105648
VInce
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Now approved - thanks


Vince

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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 13/02/2018 at 04:23 #105875
Airvan00
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I had a problem with rule "9K61MO/ZCF must not depart from Connington S Jn (reverse) until 2 minutes after 0K60MO/ZAG115 enters the area.
I can see the logic of this rule in normal operation, however today due to delays to 9K60, I had 9K61MO in front of 9K60MO.
Without the rule both trains go into South sidings and then both light engines come out.
I assume the rule is because of limited capacity in the sidings, however it needs to take into account the possibility of trains presenting the wrong way around.
(as i said before, excellent timetable-- thanks for all your efforts)

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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 13/02/2018 at 07:26 #105876
VInce
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Airvan00 in post 105875 said:
I had a problem with rule "9K61MO/ZCF must not depart from Connington S Jn (reverse) until 2 minutes after 0K60MO/ZAG115 enters the area.
I can see the logic of this rule in normal operation, however today due to delays to 9K60, I had 9K61MO in front of 9K60MO.
Without the rule both trains go into South sidings and then both light engines come out.
I assume the rule is because of limited capacity in the sidings, however it needs to take into account the possibility of trains presenting the wrong way around.
(as i said before, excellent timetable-- thanks for all your efforts)
Glad you like it, thanks for the comments.

Yes, that was the reason. There doesn't appear to be another way of limiting the number of trains in a location when there is limited accommodation.

Ill give it some thought and see if I can come up with another way of doing it.

Deleting the rule is the way forward at the moment, I think.

Vince

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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 13/02/2018 at 10:53 #105877
DriverCurran
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Vince

Have been having a go on this one over the past few days, excellent work

So when does Kings Cross 1977 six day timetable appear :p

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 13/02/2018 at 10:57 #105878
BarryM
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VInce in post 105876 said:
Airvan00 in post 105875 said:
I had a problem with rule "9K61MO/ZCF must not depart from Connington S Jn (reverse) until 2 minutes after 0K60MO/ZAG115 enters the area.
I can see the logic of this rule in normal operation, however today due to delays to 9K60, I had 9K61MO in front of 9K60MO.
Without the rule both trains go into South sidings and then both light engines come out.
I assume the rule is because of limited capacity in the sidings, however it needs to take into account the possibility of trains presenting the wrong way around.
(as i said before, excellent timetable-- thanks for all your efforts)
Glad you like it, thanks for the comments.

Yes, that was the reason. There doesn't appear to be another way of limiting the number of trains in a location when there is limited accommodation.

Ill give it some thought and see if I can come up with another way of doing it.

Deleting the rule is the way forward at the moment, I think.

Vince
Vince,
It is up to the signaller to control the trains entering and leaving the Siding. You need to remove the rule that relates to the train and light engine. Trains running late need to wait if the siding is already being shunted and until the light engine has departed.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 13/02/2018 at 13:04 #105882
clive
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VInce in post 105876 said:
Airvan00 in post 105875 said:

I assume the rule is because of limited capacity in the sidings,
Yes, that was the reason. There doesn't appear to be another way of limiting the number of trains in a location when there is limited accommodation.
Sim authors have the ability to put in such a limit, but I see I didn't do that for Peterborough.

Mantis 17756.

Last edited: 13/02/2018 at 13:08 by clive
Reason: Wrong Mantis number

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The following user said thank you: VInce
Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 13/02/2018 at 17:16 #105884
VInce
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BarryM in post 105878 said:
VInce in post 105876 said:
Airvan00 in post 105875 said:
I had a problem with rule "9K61MO/ZCF must not depart from Connington S Jn (reverse) until 2 minutes after 0K60MO/ZAG115 enters the area.
I can see the logic of this rule in normal operation, however today due to delays to 9K60, I had 9K61MO in front of 9K60MO.
Without the rule both trains go into South sidings and then both light engines come out.
I assume the rule is because of limited capacity in the sidings, however it needs to take into account the possibility of trains presenting the wrong way around.
(as i said before, excellent timetable-- thanks for all your efforts)
Glad you like it, thanks for the comments.

Yes, that was the reason. There doesn't appear to be another way of limiting the number of trains in a location when there is limited accommodation.

Ill give it some thought and see if I can come up with another way of doing it.

Deleting the rule is the way forward at the moment, I think.

Vince
Vince,
It is up to the signaller to control the trains entering and leaving the Siding. You need to remove the rule that relates to the train and light engine. Trains running late need to wait if the siding is already being shunted and until the light engine has departed.

Barry
I take you point but we are working with Simsig here - how does a Simsig user know there is a restriction? In theory the Peterborough sim would permit any number of trains to be in the sidings at any given time when in reality only at a time was permitted.

Clive has indicated later in the thread that it is possible for a developer to limit the number of trains at a location such as this and has raised a Mantis ticket regarding the issue.

Regards

Vince

Last edited: 13/02/2018 at 17:17 by VInce
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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 13/02/2018 at 17:42 #105885
VInce
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DriverCurran in post 105877 said:
Vince

Have been having a go on this one over the past few days, excellent work

So when does Kings Cross 1977 six day timetable appear :p

Paul
Thank you for the nice comments - Kings Cross?

I know you're joking but its probably a task too big for me, I would suggest. This one was developed from a great base written by Peter and in total took probably took about nine months to a year of my life. To start from scratch with the same level of complexity would be very big task indeed for anyone!

What takes the time is the testing - this timetable has been tested for months and months under all sorts of scenarios with minor tweaks and then re-runs to make sure the minor tweak work and then that is repeated for each day, which has different trains running so its a very, very lengthy process. Just the driving rules alone probably took a month to perfect. The different timetable on a Saturday meant that something like a platform change which worked on a Mon-Fri timetable didn't necessarily work on a Saturday so Saturday, despite being a less intensive day, took longer than most days.

I would like to know if anyone has got to Saturday evening and has worked with the possession trains. That took a particularly long time to do and would like some views on whether it was a step too far, or whether users enjoyed it. The pictures attached to the first post in this thread show it is different way of working for a user to master so opinions would be welcomed.

I do think some of the user contributed timetables could do with a little more testing, but I can see why that doesn't happen given the amount of time it takes. Most people haven't got the time that I have.

I'm retired from the industry (I started in 1969) and time is not an issue for me but my other main hobby has taken a backseat during this time and I'm just trying to catch up with some work on that at them moment.

If memory serves there were about 1150 trains and 500-odd rules with over a hundred decisions and the driving rules. Each passenger train needed to have a correct formation input and each freight train its correct load as far a could be ascertained. Fortunately I worked in Nottingham Control on the Leicester Section so I recognised a lot of the trains to and from the LM and could remember things like traction and route knowledge of the various depots of the time and that helped immensely.

I very pleased that users seem to like it - its good to get positive feedback like yours is much appreciated - so thank you.

Vince

Last edited: 13/02/2018 at 17:57 by VInce
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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 13/02/2018 at 17:51 #105886
VInce
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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 13/02/2018 at 17:52 #105887
VInce
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clive in post 105882 said:
VInce in post 105876 said:
Airvan00 in post 105875 said:

I assume the rule is because of limited capacity in the sidings,
Yes, that was the reason. There doesn't appear to be another way of limiting the number of trains in a location when there is limited accommodation.
Sim authors have the ability to put in such a limit, but I see I didn't do that for Peterborough.

Mantis 17756.
Clive,

Thank you and we all owe the sim developers a debt of gratitude for the complex and detailed work you do to keep these sims working well.

One train at a time was the rule. From memory, there was a single lead into the sidings leading to fan of three roads with a headshunt at Peterborough end for shunting purposes and to release the loco. I'm not sure of length limits but I would guess trains of any significant length would need to be split and accommodated on more than one road.

I don't know the actual mechanics of unloading the ballast spoil here, but again guessing, it was probably a mechanical digger that would "grab and dump" as it were.

Thanks again.

Vince

Last edited: 13/02/2018 at 17:53 by VInce
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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 15/02/2018 at 00:11 #105926
Airvan00
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Vince in post 105876 said:

Ill give it some thought and see if I can come up with another way of doing it.
One way to fix the problem is to have a rule that 9K61MO enters the sim (at Hitchin) so many minutes after 9K60MO enters. So regardless of delays that SimSig generates for both trains 9K60MO is always first.

(these trains proceeding to Connington South Sidings to dump spoil, are recreating the daily rubble dumping trains that ran during the blitz from London to Connington South Sidings.

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Peterborough Six-day timetable Autumn 1977 - uploaded 15/02/2018 at 22:08 #105937
VInce
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Airvan00 in post 105926 said:
Vince in post 105876 said:

Ill give it some thought and see if I can come up with another way of doing it.
One way to fix the problem is to have a rule that 9K61MO enters the sim (at Hitchin) so many minutes after 9K60MO enters. So regardless of delays that SimSig generates for both trains 9K60MO is always first.

(these trains proceeding to Connington South Sidings to dump spoil, are recreating the daily rubble dumping trains that ran during the blitz from London to Connington South Sidings.
Thank you, but whilst this may help, it doesn't solve the problem. 9K61,could in theory, be routed around 9K60 in the event of say, a points failure somewhere.

Since this is the only issue that's been reported in this timetable of 1150 trains and 500 odd rules then I don't, at the moment anyway, propose to issue an updated version.

In the unlikely event this set of circumstances happens to anyone else then my recommendation is simply to delete the rule and all will be well.

As I said earlier, I'd like to hear users opinions on the Saturday possession trains and whether it is considered to be a step too far, or whether it is being enjoyed.

Vince

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