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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Timetables > Manchester East > Manchester East SX 08 04 2015

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 04/04/2018 at 12:33 #107284
Giantray
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An operational enquiry. Glossop/Hadfield....what happens in reality when there are delays? If a train is late going Hadfield to Glossop and there is a train at DG2 waiting to go to Glossop, would that service miss out Glossop and divert to Hadfield, or wait getting delayed?
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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 04/04/2018 at 13:01 #107287
Splodge
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Yes, that's the favoured way of making time back - I'm not sure what metric control use to determine when to make that diversion but as the timings are so tight around the triangle with very little turnaround at Piccadilly it's the easiest way to make time back.
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 04/04/2018 at 13:18 #107288
Steamer
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During autumn, the timetable is altered so that trains just run round the triangle and head off again throughout the day, rather than doing Glossop twice, presumably to account for more cautious approaches to stations.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 04/04/2018 at 13:19 by Steamer
Reason: None given

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 04/04/2018 at 13:35 #107289
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I have to admit, the workings at Hadfield/ Glossop aren't straight forward. I keep getting caught out. Some trains change numbers, some keep their numbers, no real logic in which station they go to first. A must to check each train's schedule. Keeps the interest up.

What sort of traffic uses Avenue Sidings, Brookside Sidings and Ashbury Yard?

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 04/04/2018 at 13:52 #107291
Steamer
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Giantray in post 107289 said:
I have to admit, the workings at Hadfield/ Glossop aren't straight forward. I keep getting caught out. Some trains change numbers, some keep their numbers, no real logic in which station they go to first. A must to check each train's schedule. Keeps the interest up.

Off peak, the pattern is Dinting, Glossop, Hadfield (change TD), Glossop, Dinting.
Morning peak (after the first few of the day), trains run Dinting, Hadfield, Glossop, Dinting.
Evening peak, trains run Dinting, Glossop, Hadfield, Dinting.
The first and last couple of trains of the day do unusual things.

Trains that run round all three sides of the triangle don't change ID. In the peaks, the timetable appears to be designed so that Glossop to Manchester commuters get the faster journey time.

Quote:
What sort of traffic uses Avenue Sidings, Brookside Sidings and Ashbury Yard?
Brookside has a facility for maintaining tampers and other track machines, and the other sidings at Guide Bridge seem to be used for recessing, wagon storage and possibly running round trains. The DCE siding is out of use.

Ashburys yard is an aggregates terminal.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 04/04/2018 at 13:53 by Steamer
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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 04/04/2018 at 14:30 #107293
Splodge
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Bizarrely during leaf fall when the Hadfield services run round the triangle one way only, the special TT only applies during the day Monday-Friday - as my instructor pointed out "leaves don't fall on weekends".

Not sure when the change occurred but headcodes have seen a bit of a shakeup since the 2014 timetables; all Hadfield services now use 2G headcodes with logical steps (so an inbound 2G01 will return as 2G21, 2G02 as 2G22 etc) and a noticably different sequence for the limited stop triangle services (2G4x). Similarly, services to Rose Hill now get a 2Rxx headcode and a 2Hxx returning to Manchester, with services running via Reddish in the down direction taking 2Rxx. I'm told wrong-routing was occuring more frequently a few years ago which may have been why the change was made!

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 04/04/2018 at 15:41 #107296
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Posted this on the other Manchester east forum too as not sure if it is a sim bug or timetable error

4M18 shows approaching on Down Ashton from Miles Platting, some 45 mins early. Rings in asking authorisation to proceed, but isn't in area. All the time 4M18 has been on approach, nothing else has come along, probably why I am getting several off area trains waiting signals. 4M18 is schedule to arrive at Philips Park Jn West at 1138 and depart 1208. It appeared on approach at 1123. At around 1138 it requested permission to proceed by telephone. It then rings in at around 1145 saying it is at buffer stops. Meanwhile keep getting waiting signal from 2J10 which must be somewhere behind it off area.

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 04/04/2018 at 16:27 #107298
Splodge
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I've had the same issue with 4M18 - I even removed it from the sim manually but it still caused a jam behind - authorising 2J10 to pass MN813 gave the same 'points set against train' issue so I had to remove that and everything else in the Miles Platting area. Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to resolve the issue as trains are still getting stuck.
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 04/04/2018 at 17:32 #107302
pedroathome
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I have a fix currently being tested. If it works, I will have it posted later tonight.
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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 04/04/2018 at 23:18 #107307
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Meld in post 107211 said:
I've added rules for this and a few others at Guide Bridge & Bredbury will be available in the next TT update (will give it till the weekend in case anything else crops up during the week)

Meld
Timetables v1.1.2 with the above rules added pushed tonight with sim update - click check for updates - Thanks

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 05/04/2018 at 16:13 #107321
norman B
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Hi,

I have had a problem with 6H37 07:04 dep Bredbury Siding.

First occasion the shunter rang out a little early ,train appeared,run round completed and train departed at 07;15 without anything untoward happening.

Re-Running this save then produced the following,shunter rings out on time which is 07:04,train appears run round takes place however this time the train does not move nor does the driver ring in!The TT states that the train sits here from 07:26 to 07:46.Why such an early departure at 07:04?

Running the problems set at moderate and with the sliders left untouched this train stops the branch line and effects 2H53 which is a late running service.My workaround is to kill the TT,get the train to move and then reinstate the TT which gets rid of the problem.

Are thr timings for 6H37 correct or has a typo slipped in for the Bedbury Siding departure time?

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 05/04/2018 at 16:37 #107322
MarkC
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norman B in post 107321 said:
Hi,

I have had a problem with 6H37 07:04 dep Bredbury Siding.

First occasion the shunter rang out a little early ,train appeared,run round completed and train departed at 07;15 without anything untoward happening.

Re-Running this save then produced the following,shunter rings out on time which is 07:04,train appears run round takes place however this time the train does not move nor does the driver ring in!The TT states that the train sits here from 07:26 to 07:46.Why such an early departure at 07:04?

Running the problems set at moderate and with the sliders left untouched this train stops the branch line and effects 2H53 which is a late running service.My workaround is to kill the TT,get the train to move and then reinstate the TT which gets rid of the problem.

Are thr timings for 6H37 correct or has a typo slipped in for the Bedbury Siding departure time?
Timings are correct, when signalling Freight that has a runround on a main line you the signaller need to ensure that you work round any late running trains. Freight trains tend to have a pathing allowance between points so a slight delay does no always hit to hard. Also just because a yard phones up for a train to enter does not mean you have to accept straight away you can ask the yard to call back 2, 5 or 15 mins.

Most Timetables complied tend not to be typed they get imported via a special tool.

It's not my fault! I was left unsupervised.
Last edited: 05/04/2018 at 16:41 by MarkC
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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 05/04/2018 at 16:43 #107324
norman B
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Thanks for your reply,just thought I would ask!
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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 05/04/2018 at 18:15 #107325
norman B
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Mark,

Can I ask why the first example ran early by the whim of the simulation ,should it too not have waited for its time?

I do understand fully the signallers role but I am trying to get the feel of the sims logic!

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 05/04/2018 at 18:25 #107326
MarkC
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norman B in post 107325 said:
Mark,

Can I ask why the first example ran early by the whim of the simulation ,should it too not have waited for its time?

I do understand fully the signallers role but I am trying to get the feel of the sims logic!
There is a ramdom element to the departure of freight trains, one instance they stick to time and another they want to leave early.

It's not my fault! I was left unsupervised.
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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 05/04/2018 at 20:23 #107332
norman B
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So,in the RW how do the signallers cope with a train that will wait its time at a timing point or one which will want to run?
If freight trains on a route are running late,and subject to crew changes requirements,have a wait 10min at a timing point in the TT,if traffic permits the signaller will want to get them running.

In the sim at for example Heaton Mersey sim entrance some freights are waiting time whilst others are not,which makes effective planning difficult.

Perhaps the way the sim works,then it is to inject the element of surprise!

I am not complaining just trying to appreciate the complex nature of the modern railway.

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 06/04/2018 at 09:13 #107342
kbarber
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norman B in post 107332 said:
So,in the RW how do the signallers cope with a train that will wait its time at a timing point or one which will want to run?
If freight trains on a route are running late,and subject to crew changes requirements,have a wait 10min at a timing point in the TT,if traffic permits the signaller will want to get them running.

In the sim at for example Heaton Mersey sim entrance some freights are waiting time whilst others are not,which makes effective planning difficult.

Perhaps the way the sim works,then it is to inject the element of surprise!

I am not complaining just trying to appreciate the complex nature of the modern railway.
I can only speak for the 'old railway' (pre-1994), but I suspect many things are similar on the ground.

Where there are crew changes that are likely to upset things, the signalman would keep in touch with what crews are & aren't around. That could be by various means - the local Train crew Supervisor would be a good one if there was a Signing On Point close by, or in some cases the bobby would have the local drivers' messroom phone number to hand. In some places the crew would phone in themselves (if the box was strategically located, they might even wait in the box - boiling water to make a can of tea at the last minute as their train arrived, in addition to all the other advantages).

If a train wants a run, the driver will usually communicate the fact to the bobby. Generally in unmistakeable terms if (s)he's on a finishing turn and wants to book off promptly. A degree of local knowledge is also desirable. Certain depots were known for being full of fire breathers (Top Shed anyone?), whereas others (I probably shouldn't mention March) seemed more concerned to maximise overtime (amazing how you can put the most minor delay in a train and thereby lose a path if you really want to). But there were exceptions - even March men could run 'em when they were trying to get back home for Saturday afternoon.

The one thing you can say with anything approaching confidence is that absolutely anything can happen and probably will...

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 06/04/2018 at 10:16 #107343
norman B
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my time frame was 1966/67/68 and then 1988/1995 both as a guard /conductor/area operational relief/customer service manager.

Locations North Eastern region/Southern/Carlisle/Preston/Birmingham.

Varied career but ended up with a very broad appreciation of the railway!Even spent three weeks working a Bury on the Electrics just prior to the branch closing for conversion to Metro-Link.(Working arrangements here took on a unique flavour!!!!)

Great times!!!

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 07/04/2018 at 10:04 #107361
kbarber
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norman B in post 107343 said:
my time frame was 1966/67/68 and then 1988/1995 both as a guard /conductor/area operational relief/customer service manager.

Locations North Eastern region/Southern/Carlisle/Preston/Birmingham.

Varied career but ended up with a very broad appreciation of the railway!Even spent three weeks working a Bury on the Electrics just prior to the branch closing for conversion to Metro-Link.(Working arrangements here took on a unique flavour!!!!)

Great times!!!

Sounds like there might be some stories there???!! Or is there not yet enough water under the bridge?

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 07/04/2018 at 11:27 #107362
norman B
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Yes,just let me say that what was down on paper only applied to the first sign on for drivers/Conductors and even then an early finish was assured!

The set workings did work as programmed !

It was one of the best three weeks of work which I ever did including a Sunday de-icing turn!

I moved from Farnham after conductor training and two months working , due to my wife missing the North.Staffing in those days was a problem throughout the industry so my manager expedited a transfer to Wigan with the agreement of the Manchester Victoria train crew manager.At interview ,as I was 3rd rail trained they new manager said if I did three weeks at Bury.The three weeks became five in all! I would then be placed at Wigan Wallgate as a conductor.Both of the vacancies had been around for years!! The travel down from Kendal proved worth while in many ways,both as experience and financially -win win for all parties.

I did my route knowledge at Bury on day one along with all of the other admin stuff and was on the roster the following day.Little did I know at that stage that I would end up in the front cab due to a medical emergency!!

Yes I have a lot of tales about how we used to get the job done in those days to the benefit of management,passengers and ourselves.

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 08/04/2018 at 14:21 #107389
kbarber
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norman B in post 107362 said:
Yes,just let me say that what was down on paper only applied to the first sign on for drivers/Conductors and even then an early finish was assured!

The set workings did work as programmed !

It was one of the best three weeks of work which I ever did including a Sunday de-icing turn!

I moved from Farnham after conductor training and two months working , due to my wife missing the North.Staffing in those days was a problem throughout the industry so my manager expedited a transfer to Wigan with the agreement of the Manchester Victoria train crew manager.At interview ,as I was 3rd rail trained they new manager said if I did three weeks at Bury.The three weeks became five in all! I would then be placed at Wigan Wallgate as a conductor.Both of the vacancies had been around for years!! The travel down from Kendal proved worth while in many ways,both as experience and financially -win win for all parties.

I did my route knowledge at Bury on day one along with all of the other admin stuff and was on the roster the following day.Little did I know at that stage that I would end up in the front cab due to a medical emergency!!

Yes I have a lot of tales about how we used to get the job done in those days to the benefit of management,passengers and ourselves.
'Nuff said. I suspect I saw similar doings at Enfield Town... Form 1 for those unlucky enough to end up in the Control log (there weren't quite so many vacancies there), otherwise everyone just looked t'other way.

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 11/08/2018 at 11:51 #110903
y10g9
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Just working my way through the later hours of the timetable, and have found that 2 0E07 appear, 1 from Heaton Norris Jn and the other from Miles Platting Jn. I've checked the most recent version of the WTT (I'm contiunuing a slightly older version) and there is no rules that prevents both versions appearing at the same time. Both trains have the same origin and destination, including timings, and so looks like there is just 2 paths available for the train to run through Manchester in. Guessing there is either a rule or decision missing.
Cheers

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 11/08/2018 at 19:41 #110912
Meld
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By 0E07 I assume you mean 0E02 the Basford Hall - Midland Road light move.

I think these 2 are going to be a complete pain in the ass later if/when other sims become available as they take entirely different routes to Stalybridge

Decisions added TT update to v1.1.3 passed on to Karl

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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 11/08/2018 at 19:58 #110914
headshot119
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Meld in post 110912 said:
By 0E07 I assume you mean 0E02 the Basford Hall - Midland Road light move.

I think these 2 are going to be a complete pain in the ass later if/when other sims become available as they take entirely different routes to Stalybridge

Decisions added TT update to v1.1.3 passed on to Karl
And pushed via the updater.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Manchester East SX 08 04 2015 11/08/2018 at 20:05 #110915
y10g9
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Meld in post 110912 said:
By 0E07 I assume you mean 0E02 the Basford Hall - Midland Road light move.

I think these 2 are going to be a complete pain in the ass later if/when other sims become available as they take entirely different routes to Stalybridge

Decisions added TT update to v1.1.3 passed on to Karl
Yes, 0E02 not 0E07. Thanks

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