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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable

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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 02/10/2018 at 22:37 #112437
postal
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HST125Scorton in post 112434 said:
Andrew G in post 112432 said:
Either 6M31 (H73388) is too long at 398 metres for Ravenstruther HS or the HS is too short.

Trains comes out of Ravenstruther and stops at Buffer Stops, and foul of points, in effect not reaching the reversing point.
I shorten the train by 1 wagon. 378m works perfectly. Although I'm "sure" trains upto 400m fit in Ravenstruther HS. As I sure in quotations as I could be wrong..
Picture half way down this scot-rail.co.uk page of a Cl.70 working empties from Longannet to Ravenstruther. Looks like 19 x HHA in the consist so total length of about 394m. including loco.

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Last edited: 02/10/2018 at 22:38 by postal
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 02/10/2018 at 22:37 #112438
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DBS 66 + 21 HTAs were the standard formation for Anglo Scottish coals and they are 399m

I dont have figures to hand but a FL 66 + 21hoppers were slightly shorter

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 03/10/2018 at 00:10 #112441
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Don't know how relevant this may be to this issue, but I always noticed that 2 wagons were abandoned in the head shunt when a coal train (FL) had been into Ravenstruther.

SS attached.

Though these were HHAs and not HTAs which are shorter. HHAs are 19.6m buffer to buffer and HTAs were 17.76m but after conversions are now 14.3m in length (which probably isn't relevant to the sim)

Craig
[attachment=9843]2018-10-02 (1)_LI.jpg[/attachment]

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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 02/11/2018 at 19:25 #113070
HST125Scorton
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Going to throw this issue in also.
3S94 0444 Ayr TMD - Ayr TMD (NR MPV)train. Booked to stop at Law Junction 10:09-10:32 and 11:13-11:44 but in doing so blocks trains from Wishaw or Carluke directions. Would it be sensible to have them booked into the UPL/DPL at Law instead?

Got a backward rule also with 6H26 must appear 20mins after 0H26 leaves the area. 0H26 in fact doesn't leave the area and is the loco to join 6H26 to release 0S00 back into Mossend Yard.

Slowly and painfully working my way through this timetable... Mossend is in a mess like but hey I'm running nonARS and having fun..

Aaron (AJRO)
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 27/10/2019 at 16:00 #121363
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4Q79 1854 Polmadie - Carlisle which enters at Midcalder Jn at 0001 is a Network Rail Ultrasonic Test Unit (UTU), and its max speed of 90mph in the TT is incorrect for two reasons. Firstly, when in transit UTU's are max speed 75mph. Secondly, I've compared the point-to-point timings with the mileages and they are consistent with a UTU testing at its max testing speed of 30mph, so the max speed needs amending to 30 otherwise it will be shredding its probes.

Regards,

Phil.

Last edited: 27/10/2019 at 17:51 by Phil-jmw
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 27/10/2019 at 19:43 #121368
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I've also looked at the timings for the two subsequent 4Q79 entries (Rutherglen 0147 to Carstairs via Holytown & Rtn, and 0356 Rutherglen to Gretna via Motherwell).

In the TT both of these trains are showing max speed 75mph, but, for the 0147 entry, the fact that it's out to Carstairs and return via the same route suggests it is recording out and back, and this is supported by having compared the timings with the mileages involved, so this schedule also needs its max speed amending to 30mph. I'll see if I can dig out any further info, but if memory serves the 0147 entry only recorded Uddington Jn - Law Jn with transits Rutherglen - Uddingston and Law - Carstairs & vv. The main line was, IIRC, and definitely is now, recorded in one shift in one direction from Glasgow Bridge St Jn - Carlisle North Jn, and another shift in the opposite direction.

In the case of the 0356 entry, this does indeed look like a transit from Glasgow to Carlisle (notwithstanding my last comments above) as it is given only 121 mins wheel-turning time (whereas those 89.575 miles would need 179 mins at 30mph), so the max speed 75mph would be correct. I recorded Glasgow to Carlisle only a few nights ago and we were timed 192 mins wheel-turning time (opstops, PNB removed but engineering/recovery time included), so this also supports the schedule in this TT being a transit move.

Regards,

Phil.

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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 28/04/2020 at 21:41 #126413
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Small problem: the 8M's turning around in the Coatbridge spur (8M74, 8M82, maybe others) have no near end stopping position set, so they run to the end of the spur (which seems to be rather long) at 5 mph, and back.
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 29/04/2020 at 18:13 #126427
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Spur is 400m - so you can reverse a full length freightliner in it. This should be the only access for AC hauled trains from the south.
You cannot run an AC loco through the freightliner terminal - even if the sim lets you as the wires would get in the way of taking the boxes off.

Bill

(corrected from below - not 400m but 980m)

Last edited: 30/04/2020 at 13:49 by bill_gensheet
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 29/04/2020 at 19:01 #126430
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bill_gensheet in post 126427 said:
Spur is 400m - so you can reverse a full length freightliner in it. This should be the only access for AC hauled trains from the south.
You cannot run an AC loco through the freightliner terminal - even if the sim lets you as the wires would get in the way of taking the boxes off.

Bill
From the current timetable - better start laying more track on the spur :)

Felixstowe North 4S88 14.33 SX Coatbridge FLT 06.40 (4) - 86 x 2 + 21 Flats - 452m

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 29/04/2020 at 19:01 #126431
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bill_gensheet in post 126427 said:
Spur is 400m - so you can reverse a full length freightliner in it. This should be the only access for AC hauled trains from the south.
You cannot run an AC loco through the freightliner terminal - even if the sim lets you as the wires would get in the way of taking the boxes off.

Bill
Wasn't Albert's point that the trains are proceeding all the way down the spur, rather than stopping immediately behind MG1000?

Meld said:
From the current timetable - better start laying more track on the spur :)
It's 980m in the sim.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 29/04/2020 at 19:03 by Steamer
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 29/04/2020 at 19:05 #126432
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Albert in post 126413 said:
Small problem: the 8M's turning around in the Coatbridge spur (8M74, 8M82, maybe others) have no near end stopping position set, so they run to the end of the spur (which seems to be rather long) at 5 mph, and back.
The spur itself is, or should be, 15mph. 5mph from the points into the terminal.

HAP
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 30/04/2020 at 13:46 #126447
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Steamer in post 126431 said:
bill_gensheet in post 126427 said:

Bill
Wasn't Albert's point that the trains are proceeding all the way down the spur, rather than stopping immediately behind MG1000?
Yes, although phrased such that he was also checking if the spur was too long.
Bill

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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 30/04/2020 at 21:59 #126456
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Apologies for the confusion! Steamer is right. I didn't doubt the accuracy of the length, I just noticed that it took a couple minutes to get to the end and back.

Trains do run 15mph on some other sections - the goods loop I believe - but these class 8 trains were definitely travelling along the spur at 5mph.

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Last edited: 30/04/2020 at 22:58 by Albert
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 30/04/2020 at 23:06 #126460
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Albert in post 126456 said:
Apologies for the confusion! Steamer is right.

Trains do run 15mph on some other sections - the goods loop I believe - but these class 8 trains were definitely travelling along the spur at 5mph.
Sectional Appendix says.

DGL is 20mph entry and exit from Coatbridge, 15mph Down to Up.
DGL to DM is 15mph.
5mph to and from the depot to the DLG exit points to the mainline.

Class 8 being max speed 35mph.

My work route maps have the spur as 15mph, but the SA doesn't state, I have confirmed with FL driver it's actually still 20mph towards the shunt neck but it's unmarked.

Near end stopping points would be needed for in sim. The shunter hands the driver a radio to inform him when he's within the signal.There's an OFF indicator around the bend for the driver to know that the signal is off. The shunter isn't PTS competent to work outside the yard.

if propelling its 3mph, if loco leading its 5mph from the gates to the compound.

HAP
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 12/05/2020 at 13:11 #126721
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To add to that: 8M34 and 4S59 also lack a stopping point in the spur.

Edit: 4S83 too.

Edit: not related to the spur - 0X77 is scheduled to call at Mossend when moving from 296 rev to North Jn rev, I think this should be "pass".

Edit: 6S11 does not reverse at its intended reversal point - it stops at 306 instead. (Sim bug?) Consider changing the platform code to DAR. (Also, it is slightly longer than the Down Arrivals track.)

Edit: 4S26 has a rule that makes sure it reappears after it enters the yard, this rule does not appear to be triggered. (Sim bug?)

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Last edited: 13/05/2020 at 09:42 by Albert
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 13/05/2020 at 19:03 #126763
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Andrew G in post 108311 said:
Another issue I have encountered several times, which require manual intervention, are reversals of long trains at MB298.
I found a fix for the manual intervention: use 'near end', as near end aligns the back of the train with the signal rather than the front. I used platform DAR, which worked; what happens when you put 298 there in combination with near end, I haven't tried yet. 298 and far and is giving me erratic behaviour in any case, maybe because a reversing point at a signal (as opposed to a line code/platform number) does not have a physical 'far' end!

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Last edited: 13/05/2020 at 20:25 by Albert
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 14/05/2020 at 23:15 #126824
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Fix for 6S58's reversal at Dalzell: use Dalzell UGL (South end) with position Near. Requires no more manual intervention, apart from setting the route onto the mainline.
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 15/05/2020 at 12:32 #126827
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The 'Mossend North' location is calculated from sig 306, and is complex due to the intervening PL signals. A 'near end stop' simply means 'stop as soon as you reach track defined as Mossend North'.
This would be M302 if you chose to route to M296, not M296 itself.

I suggest that a 'far end - length' is safest, using the shorter length. This is so that you can use M296 (or M302) instead of M298 or vv where suitable.
The 298 spur is 395m in sim
The 296 track circuit is 284m

So for a loco, FX300 is fine for route to DGL (298 or 302), but FX250 if going over to the up yard (298 or 296).

regards
Bill

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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 18/05/2020 at 13:56 #126909
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bill_gensheet in post 126827 said:
The 'Mossend North' location is calculated from sig 306, and is complex due to the intervening PL signals. A 'near end stop' simply means 'stop as soon as you reach track defined as Mossend North'.
This would be M302 if you chose to route to M296, not M296 itself.

I have routed reversing trains onto the Down Arrival instead of the Down Coatbridge as most are going to/from DA1. For the Down Coatbridge you may be right, on the Down Arrival my observations are different.

Stopping near 306 is what happens when you select far end for a long train - the far end of Mossend North seems to be rather ill-defined somewhere half-way down the DAR line, probably with reversing locos in mind. The train is still miles away (figuratively) from signal 329 once its front reaches this 'far end'.

Near end + platform 'DAR' or '298' works better because that aligns the rear end of the train rather than the front end of the train, and appears to take the platform code into account to align with the near end of an imaginative platform. It just goes wrong when you do not clear signal 329 ahead of an overlength train hitting it. If the train hits a red signal 329, it will reverse there.
On other reversing points in the sim (see my example of the Dalzell loop a few posts up) the train calls at red instead of reversing, but here it probably considers itself already inside Mossend North (inside signal 306) once it gets stopped, even though it hasn't aligned with the 'platform' yet.

The solution, in the end, is probably far end minus nearly the length of the train, given the far end is not so far. Unless the sim gets updated to fix the phonecall.

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Last edited: 18/05/2020 at 14:02 by Albert
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 18/05/2020 at 14:00 #126910
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Another issue (unrelated to my post above) 6D78 does not leave space for a loco at its rear end when stopping in the UR1. Probably easy to fix by near end plus/minus the length of a loco.

Edit: 5C77/G46514 has a rule that prevents its second part from entering before the first part has entered Derby sidings, this rule is not working (wrong G46514 selected in box Y, I think).

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Last edited: 18/05/2020 at 15:26 by Albert
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 18/05/2020 at 21:19 #126919
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Albert in post 126909 said:

Stopping near 306 is what happens when you select far end for a long train - the far end of Mossend North seems to be rather ill-defined somewhere half-way down the DAR line, probably with reversing locos in mind. The train is still miles away (figuratively) from signal 329 once its front reaches this 'far end'.
Is this 'Far' or 'Far exact' you find to be variable ?

I would be concerned (and so go and test/check) if you are finding 'Far Exact' to be variable.

Bill

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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 19/05/2020 at 00:13 #126924
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Apologies for being unclear (as happens so often on this forum as English is not my native language), I didn't find it to be variable, I just found it to be in an unexpected location.
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 20/05/2020 at 22:18 #126971
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2Y51 is scheduled to call at Benhar Junction. I assume this should be 'pass'.
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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 25/05/2020 at 11:48 #127106
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Some trains whose max. speed might be incorrect:

6M66 is a class 6 with max. speed 75mph
1M04 is much faster than its TT says: is already 15 early once it passes Lockerbie.

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Motherwell Groundhog day (15-10-09) Timetable 25/05/2020 at 16:02 #127113
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Albert in post 126910 said:
6D78 does not leave space for a loco at its rear end when stopping in the UR1. Probably easy to fix by near end plus/minus the length of a loco.

Same goes for 6E93.

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