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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 07/09/2018 at 23:39 #111987
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Couple of final minor bugs from me....

Activity for 1P46 should be DER 5M07 not DR
Similarly, activity for 4S17 should be DER 5S06 not DR

The train description for an iteration of Trip 01 (UID 5T01L) states that it is formed of Cl08 + 3xCarFlats when it is Cl08+1xBG - yeah I know its minor, but it threw me when trying to keep track of the trip workings/destinations.

Once again many thanks to Pascal and Postal for all your efforts.

One probably for TomOF, but have had problems with 4S38 leaving Citadel. Due to disruption, have had to re-platform this train - through F2+Edit - and every time (3x) it has reversed its direction of travel after the crew change so has caused a blockage at the North end of the station as the driver 'changes ends' back to the correct end - I do have a coupe of saves if needed.

Have also had 5P03 complain of wrong route at CE274, trying to route via Rome St but TT'd via Penrith-CarlisleP3-Caldew.

TIA

In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream...
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 08/09/2018 at 00:10 #111988
postal
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Soton_Speed in post 111987 said:
Couple of final minor bugs from me....

Activity for 1P46 should be DER 5M07 not DR
Similarly, activity for 4S17 should be DER 5S06 not DR

The train description for an iteration of Trip 01 (UID 5T01L) states that it is formed of Cl08 + 3xCarFlats when it is Cl08+1xBG - yeah I know its minor, but it threw me when trying to keep track of the trip workings/destinations.

Once again many thanks to Pascal and Postal for all your efforts.

One probably for TomOF, but have had problems with 4S38 leaving Citadel. Due to disruption, have had to re-platform this train - through F2+Edit - and every time (3x) it has reversed its direction of travel after the crew change so has caused a blockage at the North end of the station as the driver 'changes ends' back to the correct end - I do have a coupe of saves if needed.

Have also had 5P03 complain of wrong route at CE274, trying to route via Rome St but TT'd via Penrith-CarlisleP3-Caldew.

TIA
Thanks for the nice words.

I've dug back into the archive and can confirm that the unpowered portions of 1P46 and 4S17 still show as diesel powered, so thanks for that. The two detaches and the typo in the Trip 01 description will be updated and off to Tom in a few minutes.

For those who are wondering, the Trip 01 typo is in the description in the front tab of the TT. The consist on the second tab is correct.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 08/09/2018 at 00:13 by postal
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 08/09/2018 at 09:18 #111990
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58050 in post 111973 said:
To reduce the length of 6S73 isn't a big deal. Remember the majority of freight trains in this timetable have been created to represent the maximum length limit of each service according to the 1979-/1980 LMR freight train loads book. 448m = 70SLUs which is the length limit for Kingmoor Yard. 384m = 60SLUs, so if 6S73 was amended with a length of 60SLUs then that would fit. To be 100% accurate we'd really need an eye witness account of some BR publication which defined the actual length limit of each train that ran during this time & the chances of getting that is about the same as finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The majority of the freights between Newcastle - Carlisle - Newcastle are loaded to the maxc as if there were space available then wagons off diverted trains that would normally run via the ECML would be marshalled on the rear as the trains left Carlisle, although no loops to worry about on Carlisle going that way. Will amend the timetable for the next version update.
When I was in the Brent, I'm pretty certain 6S73 was booked to be 60SLU, as were virtually all the other class 6s. The only exception, if memory serves, was 6P85 (the Workington), which loaded to 70SLU

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 08/09/2018 at 11:33 #111992
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kbarber in post 111990 said:
58050 in post 111973 said:
To reduce the length of 6S73 isn't a big deal. Remember the majority of freight trains in this timetable have been created to represent the maximum length limit of each service according to the 1979-/1980 LMR freight train loads book. 448m = 70SLUs which is the length limit for Kingmoor Yard. 384m = 60SLUs, so if 6S73 was amended with a length of 60SLUs then that would fit. To be 100% accurate we'd really need an eye witness account of some BR publication which defined the actual length limit of each train that ran during this time & the chances of getting that is about the same as finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The majority of the freights between Newcastle - Carlisle - Newcastle are loaded to the maxc as if there were space available then wagons off diverted trains that would normally run via the ECML would be marshalled on the rear as the trains left Carlisle, although no loops to worry about on Carlisle going that way. Will amend the timetable for the next version update.
When I was in the Brent, I'm pretty certain 6S73 was booked to be 60SLU, as were virtually all the other class 6s. The only exception, if memory serves, was 6P85 (the Workington), which loaded to 70SLU
Certainly length limits for freight trains are designed so they can be recessed in loops along the route if required. However when I worked at Whitemoor TOPS back in 19886S96 1310 SX SLK Parkeston Quay - Mossend was booked to conveyed up to 70SLUs(448m). This train called at Doncaster, Tyne, Carlisle Kingmoor, Law Jn & Mopssend. The other Cl.6 speedlinks were loaded to 60SLUs via the ECML to Millerhill yard near Edinburgh. That said train lengths could be extended by authority of Regional Control. Bear in mind that this timetable covers the period of the Penmanshiel Tunnel collapse & I'm sure alot of trains heading north via Carlisle would have ran with extended lenthsto cater for displaced wagons due to the line being closed. Kingmoor yard being the biggest in the country could have handled trains in excess of 100SLUs, so in all honesty 10SLUs here or there isn't really alot. Whitemoor Yard had a length limit of 70SLUs, but on occasions would take trains alot longer. I remember one night a Felixstowe bound freightliner failed on the ECML in the Doncaster area. A single Cl.56 was dispatched from Carr loco to rescue the train as it was diverted into Whitemoor Yard. The train was over 100 SLUs in length as the Cl.56 came to a stand outside the TOPS office. The Cl.56 ddetached & returned LD back to Doncaster. The two Cl.37/0s were dragged to March TMD by one og the yard pilots & the 25 freightliner vehicles had to wait for another loco to work the train to Ipswich. Freight trains which conveyed extra traffic were first wired out by the Regional Control Office where the train originated from after receiving confirmation from the terminating yard(yard supervisor or AFA - Area Freight Assistant) that they could accept the train & only then was the train set off on the move. Also the wire would also be sent to all the PSBs on the route so they too would know of the extra length as well as receiving a phomne call from the Current Freight & Resources Officer or Duty Freight Manager.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 09/09/2018 at 10:35 #112017
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lazzer in post 111971 said:
Just spotted another thing with 6S73, although this is the one that enters at Carnforth at 23.42.

You can't use the the loop at Oxenholme because that's even shorter, so the only option is to run 6S73 to Tebay, and get it out of the way there, but not until it's held up 1S03 anyway. 6S73 will, of course, call in a wrong route if you signal it to continue through on the Down Main if you don't edit the TT to ignore Grayrigg.
.
I've somewhat overlooked this, but basically I could give consideration to not have trains call in when signalled past a loop at which they are booked to stop (but are then to rejoin the main line) and automatically delete the loop location. It's then up to the signaller to deal with the consequences, although I'm sure there will be various arguments for and against.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 09/09/2018 at 11:43 #112020
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TomOF in post 112017 said:

I've somewhat overlooked this, but basically I could give consideration to not have trains call in when signalled past a loop at which they are booked to stop (but are then to rejoin the main line) and automatically delete the loop location. It's then up to the signaller to deal with the consequences, although I'm sure there will be various arguments for and against.
Not sure I can think of any logical arguments against - except possibly allowing for any services marked to stop for a Crew Change.

Motherwell already handles this in the way you have outlined for most of the loops on Panel 6.

The logical argument for allowing a train signalled main line to continue is that it might be late itself and already be running behind the service which was intended to over take it or the service which was intended to overtake it might itself be running late thereby negating the need to be looped. The loop might also already be in sue by an out of course - but slower service.

Some WTT writers have put passing rather than departure time for looped services - personally I am not a fan of this approach.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 09/09/2018 at 14:29 #112021
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Andrew G in post 112020 said:
Some WTT writers have put passing rather than departure time for looped services - personally I am not a fan of this approach.
+1

If you want the train to run, all you need to do is go into F2 > Timetable Options > Edit Timetable and set the current/next location as the first location after the loop you want to pass. Leaves the TT as intended for when there is no perturbation but allows the signaller to control what is actually happening on the day.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 09/09/2018 at 15:51 #112023
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postal in post 112021 said:
Andrew G in post 112020 said:
Some WTT writers have put passing rather than departure time for looped services - personally I am not a fan of this approach.
+1

If you want the train to run, all you need to do is go into F2 > Timetable Options > Edit Timetable and set the current/next location as the first location after the loop you want to pass. Leaves the TT as intended for when there is no perturbation but allows the signaller to control what is actually happening on the day.
Noted - although I am still interested if there are any logical downsides to adapting the simulation (similar to Motherwell).

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/09/2018 at 18:45 #112185
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I just wanted to drop a quick post to say thank you to everybody involved with the update sim and this marvelous timetable. I've just finished the Monday timetable (and somehow managed to clock up 94%) and it kept me on my toes for the full 24 hours. I probably got lucky with the game throwing out the Monday as it started relatively gently and then built up quite nice during the day. In the end I had to resort to an alarm on phone to stop engines moving in and out of the fuel points getting forgotten whilst I kept spinning other plates and I can easily see how not keeping on top of the local trip movements can come back to haunt you...

The only thing I was wondering was regarding the traction on some of the Adexes. 5Z09 is given 14 minutes from Morecambe to Carnforth Down main with electric traction. Whilst the LM region are mercifully quick with detaching / attaching locos it seems far to little time to get to Lancaster (presumably) change from diesel to electric and then back to Carnforth in the time allowed?

Please don't think I'm being pedantic as the timetable completely fascinates me and it was something that stuck in my mind as I fought my way through the day which I'm curious about.

Once again - many thanks for all your efforts. Now onward to Tuesday...

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/09/2018 at 18:58 #112186
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bluespider in post 112185 said:
The only thing I was wondering was regarding the traction on some of the Adexes. 5Z09 is given 14 minutes from Morecambe to Carnforth Down main with electric traction. Whilst the LM region are mercifully quick with detaching / attaching locos it seems far to little time to get to Lancaster (presumably) change from diesel to electric and then back to Carnforth in the time allowed?
One for Pascal but possibly a typo in the Morecambe time.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/09/2018 at 19:08 #112187
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bluespider in post 112185 said:
I just wanted to drop a quick post to say thank you to everybody involved with the update sim and this marvelous timetable. I've just finished the Monday timetable (and somehow managed to clock up 94%) and it kept me on my toes for the full 24 hours. I probably got lucky with the game throwing out the Monday as it started relatively gently and then built up quite nice during the day. In the end I had to resort to an alarm on phone to stop engines moving in and out of the fuel points getting forgotten whilst I kept spinning other plates and I can easily see how not keeping on top of the local trip movements can come back to haunt you...

The only thing I was wondering was regarding the traction on some of the Adexes. 5Z09 is given 14 minutes from Morecambe to Carnforth Down main with electric traction. Whilst the LM region are mercifully quick with detaching / attaching locos it seems far to little time to get to Lancaster (presumably) change from diesel to electric and then back to Carnforth in the time allowed?

Please don't think I'm being pedantic as the timetable completely fascinates me and it was something that stuck in my mind as I fought my way through the day which I'm curious about.

Once again - many thanks for all your efforts. Now onward to Tuesday...

I'll have to dig out the Special Traffic Notices I have to see if there is a typo or not. Should have the answer either tonight or tomorrow as those STNs could be in one of 6 or 7 stoarage containers. Will report back when I have the answer. But I'm pleased to hear that you enjoyed the challenge & yes I'd agree that doing the Monday first is probably the best way to progress onto the other days of the week as some days are busier than others depending on what day certain trains run.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 16/09/2018 at 23:19 #112192
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Up to about 5pm on my first run through still, after a couple of weeks away on business...

The old version eased off during the day, but was quite fascinated to feel real pressure during 2-3 pm. A real glut of trains in the station, and a sudden fight for land around the yard headshunts! There's a similar demand on the Annan section around the same time.

Still most enjoyable - I'm at 86.3% (my calculator tells me), so I don't think 90% is coming this time round... I'll just have to have another go, what a shame...!

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 24/09/2018 at 01:07 #112299
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I've not been discreet about my love for the Carlisle sim and the chance to play it on the Loader with the original version's issues resolved has been gnawing away at me for so long - I've done enough of the sycophantic thanks, but now I'm through one complete day I must offer another sincere doff of the cap to all concerned.

Hopefully I've done Tuesday justice. Now for the rest of the week...!


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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 17/12/2020 at 05:48 #134791
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It's Tuesday, 02:49. I have train 5T03/5T03EMX waiting in Carlisle siding SA for loco 0T03/CSTP3D which is supposed to be at Carlisle P1 @ 02d41.
Said loco 0T03 has not appeared and Edit Timetable shows it has No Entry Point and is only referenced by two instances of 5T03 - DMX & EMX.

It's more of a problem because I have train 4S38 Carnforth - Lockerbie via Upperby DGL waiting to use SA for a Crew Change, though I could route that into S1, but that would still leave 5T03 waiting for a loco that doesn't look like it's gonna show.

What are my options?

Thanks in advance,

Neal x

PS. Since Update 5.12 I'm also getting occasional Messages stating "Non-described train in berth COUT"
Any idea what that is?

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 17/12/2020 at 08:24 #134793
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Could you click the 'List referenced by' button to find out from which train 0T03/CSTP3D is supposed to form?

Maybe it detaches from a delayed train meaning a bit of patience would solve the situation.

EDIT: I see you have already done this. The loco is referenced by 5T03DMX, has this train run and detached the loco somewhere?

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 18/12/2020 at 07:03 #134847
Neal
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Hi,
5T03/5T03DMX was supposed to arrive via Collier Lane sidings @ 02:34. It didn't appear and its TT says it runs only "Randomly, according to Service Options"
It runs Collier Lane/Shunt Neck/Platform 1 where, according to its TT, it FX@30 DCF: 5S07
HOWEVER, IT IS NOT REFERENCED BY ANY OTHER TRAIN IN THE TT when you highlight it and click the 'List Referenced by' button.
It doesn't even list 0T03/CSTP3D which references IT . . . It just gives the message "No Trains Reference 5T03" so there's a bug right there!

Meanwhile: 5T03/5T03EMX arrived via train 3S11, was detached and ran via Carlisle UM LOS into siding SA . . . (I checked it's "List Referenced by" and it's correct for 3S11/0T03)
The problem still lies with 0T03/CSTP3D which, only being 'referenced by' trains 5T03/DMX & EMX, apparently 'magically' arrives on Platform 1 from nowhere, not even Wapping siding.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 18/12/2020 at 07:48 #134848
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No trains reference 5T03 means 5T03 is not part of the activities of another train's timetable.

In this case it makes sense: Trains that form or detach from 5T03 don't have 5T03 shown in their timetable.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 18/12/2020 at 11:27 #134851
Neal
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Not so.
Please note attached image.

0T03/CSTP3D references both 5T03/5T03EMX & 5T03/5T03DMX
5T03/5T03EMX references 0T03/CSTP3D & 3S11 from which, as previously stated, it detached and ran into SA via Carlisle UM LOS.
5T03/5T03DMX, contrary to your assertion, references NOTHING even though the TT says it IS part of 0T03/CSTP3D activities and is supposed to DCF: 5S07 on Platform 1 according to the Edit Timetable/Location tab.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 18/12/2020 at 11:34 #134852
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5T03DMX references other trains, but it is referenced by nothing. This is completely normal. It does not form out of another train, it should just enter from an entry point.

The question is just, why did 5T03DMX not enter.

Because you highlighted it, I cannot see whether the train is marked as entered (grey) or unentered (white).

If it is marked as unentered, please check whether a delay is shown in its properties or in the F7 incident report window, and please check whether there are any rules determining when it enters the sim.

Only if it is marked as entered, then something actually went wrong.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 18/12/2020 at 11:47 #134853
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I dont have the sim to hand right now, but if its due to enter from colliers Lane, there will be a rule linking it to an 0T03 or 5T03 that went in previously.

Check:
Is the train greyed out (marked as entered)

Does it have a delay assigned.this is visible when opening its entry in the timetable editor.

Go to the rules list and search for this train as both 1st and 2nd train. Find which train links to this one via a rule and check what has happened to it. Did it leave the sim. Did you remove it etc.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 18/12/2020 at 11:55 #134854
Neal
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It is not 5T03 that is the problem. Please don't fixate on that.

0T03/CSTP3D is supposed to shunt from Platform 1 to SA via CE294. It is not referenced by anything other than the 2 instances of 5T03 (see pic' in previous post) and there ISN'T an Entry Point for it.
It is apparently supposed to be on Platform 1 without having arrived from anywhere.It doesn't enter from Wapping Siding, Collier Lane Siding, Upperby Yard nor even Kingmoor. It is just THERE.

Only it isn't. Thus I am stuck with 5T03/5T03EMX in SA with no further activity possible if 0T03/CSTP3D is missing.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 18/12/2020 at 12:02 #134855
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5T03DMX forms 0T03. Your screenshot posted at 11:27 today shows that 0T03 is its next working.

As I understand it 5T03DMX (loco + carriages) should enter, will leave behind 5S70 (carriages) and then form 0T03 (loco).

This means, 5T03DMX is the problem.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 18/12/2020 at 12:56 #134859
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For those that can be bothered to read the Manual there is a full simplifier for Trip 03 at https://www.simsig.co.uk/Media/Wiki/%2Ftestertrack%2FCarlisle%2FTRIP%2003.pdf.

Can we please confirm that all steps pre-02:34 have been successfully completed and that there is no delay in the TT data precluding the entry of 5T03DMX. Looking at the screen shot earlier in the thread, CSTP3CMX is not shown as having entered so nothing downstream of that will appear due to the chain of rules and decisions. That then leads to tracking back to 5M49 and 4P01 as CSTP3CMX is derived from those moves.

Can I also say that it is extremely unlikely that there is a sim or TT bug per se given the number of hours of testing and then live play that a multitude of users have carried out using this TT. Some bug that has been triggered by a unique set of circumstances cannot be ruled out but that is the most unlikely of the possible causes. However, the shunts in the TT are very complicated and one false move some hours ago can cause a lot of problems now.

It is impossible to diagnose any further from the information provided as a screen shot actually passes on minimal information. If a saved game could be posted the problem tracking would be far easier.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 18/12/2020 at 13:07 by postal
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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 10/01/2021 at 17:04 #136198
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For the Train Type 'Cl.40+8BG/GUV' (ref 4S19DMX), the Class 40 in question appears to have been fitted with a pantograph (Brecknell Willis or Stone Faiveley?) rather than the more usual EE 16SVT to deliver power to the traction motors...

This unfortunately caused confusion for the crew of 4S19 at Carlisle who report that the 'New timetable has unsuitable electrification' after the power source had been corrected both in F4 (editing Train Type Tab) and F2 (editing 4S19EMX) and then the train asked to run to 4S19DMX's timetable - see save (before corrections) attached.

An EE powered Cl.40 (0S19D) had previously joined the unpowered 8 BGs from 4S19EMX.

The crew confusion is likely a code matter rather than anything TT related? - I appreciate it does not occur if the TT train type is corrected.

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Carlisle 1979-1980 Timetable 10/01/2021 at 17:46 #136207
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Soton_Speed in post 136198 said:
For the Train Type 'Cl.40+8BG/GUV' (ref 4S19DMX), the Class 40 in question appears to have been fitted with a pantograph (Brecknell Willis or Stone Faiveley?) rather than the more usual EE 16SVT to deliver power to the traction motors...

This unfortunately caused confusion for the crew of 4S19 at Carlisle who report that the 'New timetable has unsuitable electrification' after the power source had been corrected both in F4 (editing Train Type Tab) and F2 (editing 4S19EMX) and then the train asked to run to 4S19DMX's timetable - see save (before corrections) attached.

An EE powered Cl.40 (0S19D) had previously joined the unpowered 8 BGs from 4S19EMX.

The crew confusion is likely a code matter rather than anything TT related? - I appreciate it does not occur if the TT train type is corrected.
Good spot. Don't know how that happened (and has not been picked up until now). Pascal (58050) has some more work to do on the TT so an update will appear in due course. Until then it would be best if users could modify their own local copies of the TT. Checking back it seems to have happened when the Cl. 40 + 8 BG consist was added to the train types (which seems to have happened some time in 2020 if my book-keeping is right).

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