Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet)

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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 04/09/2018 at 23:26 #111863
Steamer
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Peter Bennet in post 111858 said:
HST125Scorton in post 111854 said:
I hate to say this but again Northern Strike Timetable for 8 September has crippled my chances of getting to/from Preston for start!!
I have a booked Advanced Ticket for 0845 Preston to Glasgow 1115 VWC Service, but first train off Blackpool North is 0838 'Charming' I get back to Preston for around 2015 and guess what last time to Blackpool North 1932 'Hype'

I'm working out how I'm going to get to/from Preston at present, I do know that Northern/RMT are scheduled to talk this week but unknown which date. I'm praying the strikes drop and they achieve some agreement talks etc. If the strikes don't drop and I don't find a way of getting to/from Preston then sadly I won't be attending which is a great shame as I'm looking forward to this etc. I'll Keep posted for now I'll remain as attending..
Don't forget that you can claim for consequential loss, such as a taxi, under the Consumer Rights Act. Also if you paid by Credit Card, you can claim the compensation from the Credit Card Company if you get no joy from Northern Rail.

Peter
If "HST125Scorton" booked a ticket from Blackpool to Glasgow, then presumably he would be fine to catch the first available Northern service (be it train or replacement bus) from Blackpool and change to the first available VT train to Glasgow at Preston [NRCOC 9.4] . The fact he couldn't make the booked train would be Northern's fault for cancelling the planned train from Blackpool. On the return, my understanding is that, if no train or RRB is going to Blackpool for the rest of the night, the station staff should provide a taxi [NRCOC 28.2].

However, if he only booked the Advance from Preston to Glasgow, wit the intention of booking Blackpool- Preston on the day, I don't think there's anything he can do. Per Advance Ticket conditions here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx As the two sections are under different tickets, they're counted as different, unrelated journies.

As TOCs tend to do as much as possible to avoid being brought to book on Consumer Rights issues [good luck trying to get anything back for having to travel on an RRB vice train, for example], he'd probably have to start legal proceedings to get anything from them on those grounds.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 04/09/2018 at 23:36 #111865
HST125Scorton
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Steamer in post 111863 said:
Peter Bennet in post 111858 said:
HST125Scorton in post 111854 said:
I hate to say this but again Northern Strike Timetable for 8 September has crippled my chances of getting to/from Preston for start!!
I have a booked Advanced Ticket for 0845 Preston to Glasgow 1115 VWC Service, but first train off Blackpool North is 0838 'Charming' I get back to Preston for around 2015 and guess what last time to Blackpool North 1932 'Hype'

I'm working out how I'm going to get to/from Preston at present, I do know that Northern/RMT are scheduled to talk this week but unknown which date. I'm praying the strikes drop and they achieve some agreement talks etc. If the strikes don't drop and I don't find a way of getting to/from Preston then sadly I won't be attending which is a great shame as I'm looking forward to this etc. I'll Keep posted for now I'll remain as attending..
Don't forget that you can claim for consequential loss, such as a taxi, under the Consumer Rights Act. Also if you paid by Credit Card, you can claim the compensation from the Credit Card Company if you get no joy from Northern Rail.

Peter
If "HST125Scorton" booked a ticket from Blackpool to Glasgow, then presumably he would be fine to catch the first available Northern service (be it train or replacement bus) from Blackpool and change to the first available Glasgow train at Preston. The fact he couldn't make the booked train would be Northern's fault for cancelling the planned train from Blackpool. On the return, my understanding is that, if no train or RRB is going to Blackpool for the rest of the night, the station staff should provide a taxi.

However, if he only booked the Advance from Preston to Glasgow, wit the intention of booking Blackpool- Preston on the day, I don't think there's anything he can do.

As TOCs tend to do as much as possible to avoid being brought to book on Consumer Rights issues [good luck trying to get anything back for having to travel on an RRB vice train, for example], he'd probably have to start legal proceedings to get anything from them on those grounds.
Here are my options.. My tickets are both Advanced Singles.
0827 Poulton-Le-Fylde to Glasgow Central 1115 - Preston 0853 VWC Connection
1800 Glasgow Central to Poulton-le-Fylde 2042 - Preston 2026 Northern Connection



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Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer
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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 06:38 #111867
headshot119
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Steamer in post 111863 said:
Peter Bennet in post 111858 said:
HST125Scorton in post 111854 said:
I hate to say this but again Northern Strike Timetable for 8 September has crippled my chances of getting to/from Preston for start!!
I have a booked Advanced Ticket for 0845 Preston to Glasgow 1115 VWC Service, but first train off Blackpool North is 0838 'Charming' I get back to Preston for around 2015 and guess what last time to Blackpool North 1932 'Hype'

I'm working out how I'm going to get to/from Preston at present, I do know that Northern/RMT are scheduled to talk this week but unknown which date. I'm praying the strikes drop and they achieve some agreement talks etc. If the strikes don't drop and I don't find a way of getting to/from Preston then sadly I won't be attending which is a great shame as I'm looking forward to this etc. I'll Keep posted for now I'll remain as attending..
Don't forget that you can claim for consequential loss, such as a taxi, under the Consumer Rights Act. Also if you paid by Credit Card, you can claim the compensation from the Credit Card Company if you get no joy from Northern Rail.

Peter
If "HST125Scorton" booked a ticket from Blackpool to Glasgow, then presumably he would be fine to catch the first available Northern service (be it train or replacement bus) from Blackpool and change to the first available VT train to Glasgow at Preston [NRCOC 9.4] . The fact he couldn't make the booked train would be Northern's fault for cancelling the planned train from Blackpool. On the return, my understanding is that, if no train or RRB is going to Blackpool for the rest of the night, the station staff should provide a taxi [NRCOC 28.2].

However, if he only booked the Advance from Preston to Glasgow, wit the intention of booking Blackpool- Preston on the day, I don't think there's anything he can do. Per Advance Ticket conditions here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx As the two sections are under different tickets, they're counted as different, unrelated journies.

As TOCs tend to do as much as possible to avoid being brought to book on Consumer Rights issues [good luck trying to get anything back for having to travel on an RRB vice train, for example], he'd probably have to start legal proceedings to get anything from them on those grounds.
This advice is dangerously incorrect.

A journey can be completed using one or more tickets, and the entire journey is covered by the NRCOT.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 07:12 #111868
Peter Bennet
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headshot119 in post 111867 said:
Steamer in post 111863 said:
Peter Bennet in post 111858 said:
HST125Scorton in post 111854 said:
I hate to say this but again Northern Strike Timetable for 8 September has crippled my chances of getting to/from Preston for start!!
I have a booked Advanced Ticket for 0845 Preston to Glasgow 1115 VWC Service, but first train off Blackpool North is 0838 'Charming' I get back to Preston for around 2015 and guess what last time to Blackpool North 1932 'Hype'

I'm working out how I'm going to get to/from Preston at present, I do know that Northern/RMT are scheduled to talk this week but unknown which date. I'm praying the strikes drop and they achieve some agreement talks etc. If the strikes don't drop and I don't find a way of getting to/from Preston then sadly I won't be attending which is a great shame as I'm looking forward to this etc. I'll Keep posted for now I'll remain as attending..
Don't forget that you can claim for consequential loss, such as a taxi, under the Consumer Rights Act. Also if you paid by Credit Card, you can claim the compensation from the Credit Card Company if you get no joy from Northern Rail.

Peter
If "HST125Scorton" booked a ticket from Blackpool to Glasgow, then presumably he would be fine to catch the first available Northern service (be it train or replacement bus) from Blackpool and change to the first available VT train to Glasgow at Preston [NRCOC 9.4] . The fact he couldn't make the booked train would be Northern's fault for cancelling the planned train from Blackpool. On the return, my understanding is that, if no train or RRB is going to Blackpool for the rest of the night, the station staff should provide a taxi [NRCOC 28.2].

However, if he only booked the Advance from Preston to Glasgow, wit the intention of booking Blackpool- Preston on the day, I don't think there's anything he can do. Per Advance Ticket conditions here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx As the two sections are under different tickets, they're counted as different, unrelated journies.

As TOCs tend to do as much as possible to avoid being brought to book on Consumer Rights issues [good luck trying to get anything back for having to travel on an RRB vice train, for example], he'd probably have to start legal proceedings to get anything from them on those grounds.
This advice is dangerously incorrect.

A journey can be completed using one or more tickets, and the entire journey is covered by the NRCOT.
Somewhere I have letters from ATOC and the Department of Transport on the matter of split ticketing, delay-repay and combinations and permutations thereof, I can't recall the full details but the gist is that a pssenger should be treated the same as if they had a single ticket. Unfortunately, I've not yet had to quote any of them at anybody. In this instance, however, it seems we are talking about single through AP tickets.

The course of action I would take, personally, is to make my way using alternative transport (remebering that one has a duty to mitigate as far as reasonable the cost). So a bus, if there is one, would probobably be the ideal solutions but after that, a taxi, and then lodge a claim for the loss. As John points out, there is probably already a duty of care to provide a taxi on the way back anyway.

There is a bit of a grey area as regards delay-repay if you use alternative transport such that you are not actually delayed in getting to your destination. GTR, for example, have told me that if I travel on an earlier train because my intended train is cancelled then I can claim against the intended train.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 07:17 #111869
Peter Bennet
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postal in post 111859 said:
DaveHarries in post 111856 said:
HST125Scorton in post 111740 said:
Any ideas on the sims likely to be in use? Presume something scottish?

Hmmm I wonder. Can't help thinking that Glasgow Central would be fun if it was a possibility but I am not aware if this has been in development.

Dave
If we are in Glasgow, maybe the Clockwork Orange would be a good sim. The July 2016 TT would be cracking.
I had a long FOI fight with SPT over getting the data which ended up with the Scottish Information Commissioner. The long and the short of it is that they will not release the WTTs nor any of the track circuit data, though the latter was not unexpected, given my similar fight with TFL went all the way to Tribunal. Which even the Evening Standard picked up on https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/victoria-lines-train-speed-a-state-secret-tfl-refuse-to-reveal-details-on-national-security-grounds-8319156.html


Peter

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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 11:15 #111871
Steamer
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headshot119 in post 111867 said:

This advice is dangerously incorrect.

A journey can be completed using one or more tickets, and the entire journey is covered by the NRCOT.
I assume you're referring to the second paragraph, not the first paragraph (which re-states the text found in the NRCOC)?

There does appear to be conflicting advice on the subject. Section 14.4 of NRCOT does specifically say:

Quote:
In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for which each Ticket is valid).
However, Peter's been advised of the opposite:

Peter Bennet said:
Somewhere I have letters from ATOC and the Department of Transport on the matter of split ticketing, delay-repay and combinations and permutations thereof, I can't recall the full details but the gist is that a pssenger should be treated the same as if they had a single ticket. Unfortunately, I've not yet had to quote any of them at anybody.
In any case, it's all academic as the ticket in question was booked directly from Poulton-le-Fylde to Glasgow.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 11:42 #111872
HST125Scorton
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I've yet to come up with a plan at present. I've contacted Northern Customer Services and well I might aswell not have bothered.
Only way I can think of is getting to Preston on last train Friday evening arriving 2344 and stopping all night at Preston then get my train to Glasgow etc. I can then sort a lift back home from a family member etc.

Although I'm waiting on news from Northern/RMT at present.

PS I'm now in a meeting most of this afternoon so won't get any replies until I'm home.

Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer
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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 13:44 #111873
clive
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Steamer in post 111871 said:
headshot119 in post 111867 said:

This advice is dangerously incorrect.

A journey can be completed using one or more tickets, and the entire journey is covered by the NRCOT.
I assume you're referring to the second paragraph, not the first paragraph (which re-states the text found in the NRCOC)?

There does appear to be conflicting advice on the subject. Section 14.4 of NRCOT does specifically say:

Quote:
In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for which each Ticket is valid).
However, Peter's been advised of the opposite:

Peter Bennet said:
Somewhere I have letters from ATOC and the Department of Transport on the matter of split ticketing, delay-repay and combinations and permutations thereof, I can't recall the full details but the gist is that a pssenger should be treated the same as if they had a single ticket. Unfortunately, I've not yet had to quote any of them at anybody.

That's not conflicting advice.

If you're making a journey with ordinary (not season or zonal) split tickets, then you have to obey the restrictions of each part and you have to use a train that stops at the point where you change tickets. For example, if I buy a Standard Return from Peterborough to Manea and a Day Return from Manea to London, then I have to use a train that stops at Manea and I can't depart Manea before 10:00 (or whatever the time limit is) or leave London on the way back during the rush hour. If the ticket to London was a GA Advance to Liverpool Street, I couldn't go to King's Cross. If the ticket from Peterborough to Manea was "Cross Country Only", I couldn't use a GA service (assuming there was one) to Manea, but could change to one there.

But if the train that gets me back to Peterborough is delayed by 30 minutes at March, I can make a Delay Repay service based on the total price of the two tickets, *not* just the Manea to Peterborough one. Compensation is based on the *journey*, not the segment.

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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 13:45 #111874
postal
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HST125Scorton in post 111872 said:
I've yet to come up with a plan at present. I've contacted Northern Customer Services and well I might aswell not have bothered.
Only way I can think of is getting to Preston on last train Friday evening arriving 2344 and stopping all night at Preston then get my train to Glasgow etc. I can then sort a lift back home from a family member etc.

Although I'm waiting on news from Northern/RMT at present.

PS I'm now in a meeting most of this afternoon so won't get any replies until I'm home.
Do you have any particular reason for not travelling by bus. Using Traveline again and setting the endpoints as Poulton-le-Fylde station and Preston station gives:

Poulton-le-Fylde Station: Depart 07:16, 8 minutes walk to Booth's, 75 bus to Fishergate Hill then 2 minutes walk to Preston Station, arrive 08:17.

In the reverse direction it is more complicated with the 61 bus to Blackpool from the Hill St stops (depart 21:13) then the 14 bus back to Fleetwood Road, arriving there at 23:04.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 15:33 #111878
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Clive...
But if the train that gets me back to Peterborough is delayed by 30 minutes at March, I can make a Delay Repay service based on the total price of the two tickets, *not* just the Manea to Peterborough one. Compensation is based on the *journey*, not the segment.

I have not had any luck with that. A Witham - Gleneagles SSR (not London - one ticket) was 4 hours late due to GA train failures at Marks Tey and Ipswich. Some of the delay was lack of connections after getting to Peterborough 2h30 late.
GA would only compensate to a Witham - Peterborough single.

regards
Bill

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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 16:34 #111879
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I, on the other hand, (or my son actually) had a Biggleswade to Edinburgh ticket and an Edinburgh to Inverkeithing ticket, the required train at BIW did not turn up and we successfully claimed for the lot.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 19:04 #111887
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If a journey can not be made on a day of disruption, the ticket may be used on the next available service to run.

IF that doesn't happen, and travel can not be completed on the day for which that ticket is for, then most TOCs will allow travel for the next day. (Certainly been the case for us, and I've accepted AP tickets due to disruption. We get ticket acceptance emails out most days for disruption).

With regards to delay repay. if you're overall journey is completed over 60 mins, then its a full refund of the ticket. more than 30 mins up to 59 mins 50% refundable.

If the tickets have been split though, you'll only be refunded for the delay on that service, regardless if your intended destination is 300 miles away. the contract of the ticket you purchased is between the origin and destination of that one ticket. It's a loophole that can't really be won. So if you have AP tickets split 4 times en route and the 1st train was delayed by 65 minutes and you missed every other connection, you would only be able to claim back the 1st AP ticket. If the AP ticket was for the full desired journey and that same first train was delayed, then you would get the 100% refund.

Craig

How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue
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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 19:23 #111891
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Hap in post 111887 said:
If the tickets have been split though, you'll only be refunded for the delay on that service, regardless if your intended destination is 300 miles away. the contract of the ticket you purchased is between the origin and destination of that one ticket. It's a loophole that can't really be won. So if you have AP tickets split 4 times en route and the 1st train was delayed by 65 minutes and you missed every other connection, you would only be able to claim back the 1st AP ticket. If the AP ticket was for the full desired journey and that same first train was delayed, then you would get the 100% refund.
No, the contract is for a journey from A to B, and that can be made up of a combination of tickets. If the journey is delayed, the journey should be refunded, regardless of how many tickets were used. So long as you leave the minimum connection time between services (or stay on the same service), they should be refunded just fine.

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Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 05/09/2018 at 20:40 #111893
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Sacro in post 111891 said:
Hap in post 111887 said:
If the tickets have been split though, you'll only be refunded for the delay on that service, regardless if your intended destination is 300 miles away. the contract of the ticket you purchased is between the origin and destination of that one ticket. It's a loophole that can't really be won. So if you have AP tickets split 4 times en route and the 1st train was delayed by 65 minutes and you missed every other connection, you would only be able to claim back the 1st AP ticket. If the AP ticket was for the full desired journey and that same first train was delayed, then you would get the 100% refund.
No, the contract is for a journey from A to B, and that can be made up of a combination of tickets. If the journey is delayed, the journey should be refunded, regardless of how many tickets were used. So long as you leave the minimum connection time between services (or stay on the same service), they should be refunded just fine.
Yes the contract is from A to B per each ticket, without any official/documented transfer between each split ticket, this becomes void in terms of compensation. That first ticket may have 'LNER + connections' but that is only for the itinerary of that first ticket. Once you reach the destination of that first ticket, (Where you have chosen to split the ticket) You are starting a new journey on a completely new ticket that has no relation what so ever on the first one, and no relation to the next one if there is a combination of split tickets.

Passengers take the risk of splitting ticket multiple times. In some cases, not even with the appropriate transfer times.

If you buy your desired journey for the full length on one ticket then each connection of the journey is covered by any of the trains that that ticket is scheduled to be used on.

If you have 5 tickets to get you from Bristol to Glasgow. Then all you have is 5 different tickets for 5 different A to B journeys. If you have tickets planned that you remain on the same train, you will still be treated as boarding the train from each origin per ticket per section of that route to where you remain on the same train.

Yes, split tickets for a full journey on the same train Could be entitled to a possible full or part refund, but only from where the train began to incur a delay. If that delay began on the 3rd split ticket onwards then it will be paid back from that ticket to the destination. (If the desired trigger points are met)

For example, Say you have booked 5 tickets from Bristol to Glasgow for the same train, but you are delayed getting into New Street, and that's a destination of one of your tickets. XC have stepped up a unit and that train has left RT from New Street. You're goosed. Your AP ticket from New street to next splitting point or destination isn't going to be valid. They system doesn't know that you've bought a collection of tickets for the full duration of that train journey. All that it see's is that you have a ticket from New Street to wherever and you've missed it. It doesn't know that you are on the delayed train, which has been stepped up to to ensure RT running. Again, this is the risk people take with split tickets.

If that train was 30 minutes late on one part of that ticket but the delay fell below 29 minutes for the next or remainder of tickets, then a claim can only be made on the affected ticket on the basis that you technically arrived at the destination of that Mantis 30+ minutes late.

I have had this conversation before with passengers and brought it up to the relevant department and this is what I have been told.

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.

How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue
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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 05/09/2018 at 21:22 #111896
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Hap in post 111893 said:



Yes the contract is from A to B per each ticket, without any official/documented transfer between each split ticket, this becomes void in terms of compensation. That first ticket may have 'LNER + connections' but that is only for the itinerary of that first ticket. Once you reach the destination of that first ticket, (Where you have chosen to split the ticket) You are starting a new journey on a completely new ticket that has no relation what so ever on the first one, and no relation to the next one if there is a combination of split tickets.
No, the contract is from the start of the journey to the destination, as long as the itinerary meets the minimum connection time at each station. You are not starting a new journey per ticket.

Hap in post 111893 said:

Passengers take the risk of splitting ticket multiple times. In some cases, not even with the appropriate transfer times.

If the minimum connection time is not met, then it is treated as two (or more) separate journeys.

Hap in post 111893 said:

If you buy your desired journey for the full length on one ticket then each connection of the journey is covered by any of the trains that that ticket is scheduled to be used on.
The same as it is above.

Hap in post 111893 said:

If you have 5 tickets to get you from Bristol to Glasgow. Then all you have is 5 different tickets for 5 different A to B journeys. If you have tickets planned that you remain on the same train, you will still be treated as boarding the train from each origin per ticket per section of that route to where you remain on the same train.

No you are treated as boarding at the location you boarded at.

Hap in post 111893 said:

Yes, split tickets for a full journey on the same train Could be entitled to a possible full or part refund, but only from where the train began to incur a delay. If that delay began on the 3rd split ticket onwards then it will be paid back from that ticket to the destination. (If the desired trigger points are met)

No you are entitled for compensation on the whole journey.

Hap in post 111893 said:

For example, Say you have booked 5 tickets from Bristol to Glasgow for the same train, but you are delayed getting into New Street, and that's a destination of one of your tickets. XC have stepped up a unit and that train has left RT from New Street. You're goosed. Your AP ticket from New street to next splitting point or destination isn't going to be valid. They system doesn't know that you've bought a collection of tickets for the full duration of that train journey. All that it see's is that you have a ticket from New Street to wherever and you've missed it. It doesn't know that you are on the delayed train, which has been stepped up to to ensure RT running. Again, this is the risk people take with split tickets.

If that train was 30 minutes late on one part of that ticket but the delay fell below 29 minutes for the next or remainder of tickets, then a claim can only be made on the affected ticket on the basis that you technically arrived at the destination of that Mantis 30+ minutes late.

No there is no risk, per the NRCOT you will be permitted to take the next train operated by the operator your ticket is valid on.
The delay is payable by how late you are at your destination, on the entire cost of the journey.

Hap in post 111893 said:

I have had this conversation before with passengers and brought it up to the relevant department and this is what I have been told.

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.

Your department is wrong, and I would suggest you escalate it internally. Scotrail have paid out to numerous people on split tickets in line with the NRCOT.
And the last line is completely wrong.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 05/09/2018 at 21:24 #111897
Sacro
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Hap in post 111893 said:

No, the contract is for a journey from A to B, and that can be made up of a combination of tickets. If the journey is delayed, the journey should be refunded, regardless of how many tickets were used. So long as you leave the minimum connection time between services (or stay on the same service), they should be refunded just fine.

[/quote]

NRCOC said:

14.1 Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a
journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change
from one Ticket to another.
Hap in post 111893 said:

Yes the contract is from A to B per each ticket, without any official/documented transfer between each split ticket, this becomes void in terms of compensation. That first ticket may have 'LNER + connections' but that is only for the itinerary of that first ticket. Once you reach the destination of that first ticket, (Where you have chosen to split the ticket) You are starting a new journey on a completely new ticket that has no relation what so ever on the first one, and no relation to the next one if there is a combination of split tickets.

Passengers take the risk of splitting ticket multiple times. In some cases, not even with the appropriate transfer times.
If the passenger fails to meet minimum connection time between advances, then yes, that's their risk. Otherwise there's no risk except from staff misunderstanding the rules.

Hap in post 111893 said:


If you buy your desired journey for the full length on one ticket then each connection of the journey is covered by any of the trains that that ticket is scheduled to be used on.

If you have 5 tickets to get you from Bristol to Glasgow. Then all you have is 5 different tickets for 5 different A to B journeys. If you have tickets planned that you remain on the same train, you will still be treated as boarding the train from each origin per ticket per section of that route to where you remain on the same train.
I've never heard such a rule, having used split tickets many times on different operators.

Hap in post 111893 said:

Yes, split tickets for a full journey on the same train Could be entitled to a possible full or part refund, but only from where the train began to incur a delay. If that delay began on the 3rd split ticket onwards then it will be paid back from that ticket to the destination. (If the desired trigger points are met)
I've heard TOCs attempting to use this excuse, but on being chased they've paid up.

Hap in post 111893 said:

For example, Say you have booked 5 tickets from Bristol to Glasgow for the same train, but you are delayed getting into New Street, and that's a destination of one of your tickets. XC have stepped up a unit and that train has left RT from New Street. You're goosed. Your AP ticket from New street to next splitting point or destination isn't going to be valid. They system doesn't know that you've bought a collection of tickets for the full duration of that train journey. All that it see's is that you have a ticket from New Street to wherever and you've missed it. It doesn't know that you are on the delayed train, which has been stepped up to to ensure RT running. Again, this is the risk people take with split tickets.
Which 'system'? You have a collection of tickets showing the full journey, and you'd be able to continue on the next available service. Yours has been cancelled. Same as would happen if you had a single ticket for the journey.

Hap in post 111893 said:

If that train was 30 minutes late on one part of that ticket but the delay fell below 29 minutes for the next or remainder of tickets, then a claim can only be made on the affected ticket on the basis that you technically arrived at the destination of that Mantis 30+ minutes late.
You'd only be eligible for delays at your single, final destination, although I guess you could be cheeky and try and claim for intermediate delays

Hap in post 111893 said:


I have had this conversation before with passengers and brought it up to the relevant department and this is what I have been told.
That doesn't surprise me. Often upper departments aren't always right with the rules.

Hap in post 111893 said:

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.
Which book? Is it available for the public to view?

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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 05/09/2018 at 22:01 #111898
postal
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Sacro in post 111897 said:
Hap in post 111893 said:

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.
Which book? Is it available for the public to view?
The National Rail web-site (Advance ticket terms and conditions).

The particular section of interest is:

"Break of journey

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

If you remember, GNER got a slagging a couple of years ago because a University lecturer had an AP ticket from the Cross to Durham and alighted at Darlington where he was excessed for a full single from the Cross to Darlington. There has also been a case recently where a traveller with an AP from Lancaster to Euston was threatened with prosecution and had to get CCTV evidence to prove that he had boarded at Lancaster rather than at Preston where the APs are considerably more expensive.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 05/09/2018 at 22:06 by postal
Reason: None given

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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 05/09/2018 at 22:12 #111899
Sacro
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postal in post 111898 said:
Sacro in post 111897 said:
Hap in post 111893 said:

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.
Which book? Is it available for the public to view?
The National Rail web-site (Advance ticket terms and conditions).

The particular section of interest is:

"Break of journey

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
Irrelevant. You can't be starting/breaking a journey if you don't get off a train.

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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 05/09/2018 at 23:36 #111903
HST125Scorton
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Northern/RMT/ACAS are in talks Friday for a resolution. I'm hoping they have agreements etc. News will be about late afternoon from RMT if the strikes are been called off.

As for my two Advanced Tickets in which there both M-Tickets.
Poulton to Glasgow via Preston Connecting VWC Service - 1 Ticket
Glasgow to Poulton via Preston Connecting Northern Service - 1 Ticket

If I don't activate them I apparently can claim them back cause 1- I have no train & 2- I won't be able to make any of the connections.

Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer
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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 01:03 #111904
postal
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5189 posts
Sacro in post 111899 said:
postal in post 111898 said:
Sacro in post 111897 said:
Hap in post 111893 said:

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.
Which book? Is it available for the public to view?
The National Rail web-site (Advance ticket terms and conditions).

The particular section of interest is:

"Break of journey

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
Irrelevant. You can't be starting/breaking a journey if you don't get off a train.
Obviously someone not used with the intricacies of T&Cs. The point that Hap made and which you clearly did not understand was that you could only legitimately use your AP ticket by boarding at the originating station and leaving at the destination station for the journey you had purchased. This is explicitly stated in the NR T&Cs but again the language is not the clearest. Breaking the sentence down, you may not start your journey at any intermediate station neither may you end your journey at any intermediate station.

Perhaps you could take the time to explain which bit of that is irrelevant.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 09:08 #111912
Peter Bennet
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I feel another letter to ATOC and the DfT coming on.
I've just had a rather farcical experience yesterday getting to Scotland where the 10.49 Leeds to Carlisle broke down, on an AP BIW to GLC ticket.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 09:26 #111913
kbarber
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I rather fear the split/ticket/compensation issue is one m'learned friends will need to have a lot of fun with (at a suitable daily rate, of course) to resolve.
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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 09:48 #111914
Sacro
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postal in post 111904 said:
Sacro in post 111899 said:
postal in post 111898 said:
Sacro in post 111897 said:
Hap in post 111893 said:

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.
Which book? Is it available for the public to view?
The National Rail web-site (Advance ticket terms and conditions).

The particular section of interest is:

"Break of journey

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
Irrelevant. You can't be starting/breaking a journey if you don't get off a train.
Obviously someone not used with the intricacies of T&Cs. The point that Hap made and which you clearly did not understand was that you could only legitimately use your AP ticket by boarding at the originating station and leaving at the destination station for the journey you had purchased. This is explicitly stated in the NR T&Cs but again the language is not the clearest. Breaking the sentence down, you may not start your journey at any intermediate station neither may you end your journey at any intermediate station.

Perhaps you could take the time to explain which bit of that is irrelevant.
It sounds to me like you're reading the inverse of that section. It says you can't leave a train except to change whilst on an Advance, it doesn't say that you have to enter a train to start an Advance, nor leave to end it. I've never ever heard this rule before.

Oh, unless you're confusing the use of the word "journey", if you're switching tickets, you're still on the same journey.

Last edited: 06/09/2018 at 10:32 by Sacro
Reason: None given

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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 11:28 #111917
postal
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Sacro in post 111914 said:
It sounds to me like you're reading the inverse of that section. It says you can't leave a train except to change whilst on an Advance, it doesn't say that you have to enter a train to start an Advance, nor leave to end it. I've never ever heard this rule before.

Oh, unless you're confusing the use of the word "journey", if you're switching tickets, you're still on the same journey.
The point that Hap was trying to make is that you must use your AP for the full journey from start to finish and cannot use it to join a journey at a location after the originating point, nor can you leave and terminate your journey at a location before the destination point of your AP ticket. This is confirmed by the NR website.

Perhaps you are arguing the corner case that you may have travelled on the AP train from a point prior to the originating point of your AP on another ticket, therefore you can start your AP without at that point entering a train? There is the same argument about not leaving the train at the destination of your AP as you have another ticket to continue on the same train. If so you are making your point in very narrow legalistic terms but I think the Man on the Clapham Omnibus might have doubts about your common sense and I challenge you to find a member of the revenue protection staff that would require you to leave a train at the cessation of the journey on another ticket in order to re-board the train with your AP.

If that is not your argument, perhaps you could explain in terms that people less arcane than yourself can understand exactly what point you are trying to make.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 11:34 #111918
Sacro
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postal in post 111917 said:

The point that Hap was trying to make is that you must use your AP for the full journey from start to finish and cannot use it to join a journey at a location after the originating point, nor can you leave and terminate your journey at a location before the destination point of your AP ticket. This is confirmed by the NR website.

Perhaps you are arguing the corner case that you may have travelled on the AP train from a point prior to the originating point of your AP on another ticket, therefore you can start your AP without at that point entering a train? There is the same argument about not leaving the train at the destination of your AP as you have another ticket to continue on the same train. If so you are making your point in very narrow legalistic terms but I think the Man on the Clapham Omnibus might have doubts about your common sense and I challenge you to find a member of the revenue protection staff that would require you to leave a train at the cessation of the journey on another ticket in order to re-board the train with your AP.

If that is not your argument, perhaps you could explain in terms that people less arcane than yourself can understand exactly what point you are trying to make.
Oh I'm now more confused. I was disputing the need to get on/off the train where tickets change.

If you change tickets, there is no cessation of the journey, it just continues as the same journey, albeit on another ticket.

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