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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby

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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 11/09/2018 at 21:24 #112094
Trainfan344
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Routed 1G12 a 3 car 170 into P5 at Derby from sig 442, a legitimate move as I've been on a 170 to arrive in P5 before. However when it arrived at Derby it displayed At Buffer Stop in F2, this was fixed by Making the train manually reverse.
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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 11/09/2018 at 22:32 #112097
9pN1SEAp
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Trainfan344 in post 112094 said:
Routed 1G12 a 3 car 170 into P5 at Derby from sig 442, a legitimate move as I've been on a 170 to arrive in P5 before. However when it arrived at Derby it displayed At Buffer Stop in F2, this was fixed by Making the train manually reverse.
I couldn't reproduce this on a 2006-era sim, either with or without modification to the timetabled platform.

What timetable and layout were you using? Do you have a save from just before the train arrived into P5?

Jamie S (JAMS)
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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 11/09/2018 at 22:47 #112099
postal
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Trainfan344 in post 112094 said:
Routed 1G12 a 3 car 170 into P5 at Derby from sig 442, a legitimate move as I've been on a 170 to arrive in P5 before. However when it arrived at Derby it displayed At Buffer Stop in F2, this was fixed by Making the train manually reverse.
In a situation like that, the first thing to check is whether the sim thinks the train is at Derby. Go to F2 right-click on the train and under Timetable Options select Edit Timetable. When the TT window is open one of the locations will be in bold-face type as compared with the other locations. If Derby is not set in bold-face the sim doesn't think the train has got to Derby so it is still trying to progress forward but there is a set of buffer stops in front of it. To reset the location to Derby, click on the Derby line of the TT to highlight it, then click on the Current/Next Location button. You may need to shunt the train forward after that, but you should then see the F2 description move on from At Buffer Stop to whatever action the TT has set for Derby.

If the train thinks it is already at Derby, there may be an issue with the stopping position set in the TT.

"If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm" - Vince Lombardi, 11/06/1913 – 03/09/1970, American Football Player and Coach.
Last edited: 11/09/2018 at 22:48 by postal
Reason: None given

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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 12/09/2018 at 00:12 #112100
BarryM
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1G12 is in the 15 Oct 2009 tt. It is tabled from Sheet Stores Jn to Derby P3A where it reverses.
There is no timetable for a move from sig 442(P2A)? to P5.
Trainfan344, did you manually shunt the train from P2/P3 to P5? If so, what you saw in F2 was correct!

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Last edited: 12/09/2018 at 00:15 by BarryM
Reason: edit

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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 12/09/2018 at 03:51 #112101
Soton_Speed
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Trainfan344 in post 112094 said:
Routed 1G12 a 3 car 170 into P5 at Derby from sig 442, a legitimate move as I've been on a 170 to arrive in P5 before. However when it arrived at Derby it displayed At Buffer Stop in F2, this was fixed by Making the train manually reverse.
Simsig's Multiple Unit Wiki lists a 3 Car 170 as 71m in length. The 2009 TT shows 69m for 1G12 and the relevant track circuit (T715) via F11 is shown as being 70m in length. The sim manual lists the length of Derby P5 as 66m. ISTR that in reality there were also rules governing the routing of trains into P5?

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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 12/09/2018 at 10:47 #112103
mldaureol
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Hi,

The Sim is correct.

Class 170's can be 2 or 3 car units.
However only 2 car units can use platform 5 at Derby.
3 car units had to use platforms 3 or 4.

Use the description in F2 to find out the unit length.

Mike.

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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 12/09/2018 at 11:22 #112107
Albert
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In other sims the train would stop foul of the points, arrive 'without problems' and ask for authority once it's ready to depart again. Whether the 'at buffer stops' message in this case is a bug or a feature, I don't know.
AJP in games
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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 12/09/2018 at 11:33 #112108
jc92
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I don't think a 3 car 170 would fit either. What do the rules of the plan/route show for platform 5?
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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 12/09/2018 at 12:42 #112110
Phil-jmw
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3-car 170's in practice were not normally signalled into Pfm.5 because even though they just fitted in and cleared the track circuit on the junction, the rear cab was in advance of DY445 Signal which meant the driver couldn't see the signal after changing ends.

This became apparent shortly after Midland Mainline started strengthening their 2-car 170's to 3-cars when one morning the centre panel signalman, after pulling off from DY422 into Pfm.5 for an arriving Turbostar called over to me on the back desk and asked "Do 3-car Turbo's fit in the bay?" When I replied that I wasn't sure he said "Well we're about to find out" and pointed out of the window. It crept in and got inside clear of the junction track circuit but the rear cab was just proud of DY445 Signal so when it was ready to depart the driver had to stand on the platform to see the signal clear. Shortly after that MML Control were instructed to advise Derby PSB which services were formed of 3-cars to avoid this scenario happening again and 3-cars from then on were not normally allowed in the bay.

Last edited: 12/09/2018 at 20:21 by Phil-jmw
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The following user said thank you: Trainfan344
Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 12/09/2018 at 20:16 #112123
Trainfan344
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I was playing with Disruption and P6 and good lines under possesion so I signalled this into P5 thinking it would fit!
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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 13/09/2018 at 09:33 #112134
kbarber
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There is a set of instructions in - if I recall correctly - the General Appendix concerning trains not completely within fixed signals that would cover the situation of an overlength train in a platform.

St Pancras had this regularly,and the 1957 OCS panel had signalling provision for it - you could set a route from the platform starter even though the loco was way out on the track circuit beyond the signal. The route would set & lock in but the signal itself would remain at danger; there was, however, an indication on the rear of the signal to show the driver that the route was set and the Appendix instructions then allowed for the train to be dispatched with no further fuss.

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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 13/09/2018 at 14:01 #112138
Phil-jmw
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kbarber in post 112134 said:
There is a set of instructions in - if I recall correctly - the General Appendix concerning trains not completely within fixed signals that would cover the situation of an overlength train in a platform.

St Pancras had this regularly,and the 1957 OCS panel had signalling provision for it - you could set a route from the platform starter even though the loco was way out on the track circuit beyond the signal. The route would set & lock in but the signal itself would remain at danger; there was, however, an indication on the rear of the signal to show the driver that the route was set and the Appendix instructions then allowed for the train to be dispatched with no further fuss.
We didn't have the benefit of those rear-mounted indicators at Derby, and IIRC drivers weren't happy at having to leave the cab to observe the signal so the practice of 3-cars in 5 was was discontinued under normal working.

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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 13/09/2018 at 17:09 #112143
jc92
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kbarber in post 112134 said:
There is a set of instructions in - if I recall correctly - the General Appendix concerning trains not completely within fixed signals that would cover the situation of an overlength train in a platform.

St Pancras had this regularly,and the 1957 OCS panel had signalling provision for it - you could set a route from the platform starter even though the loco was way out on the track circuit beyond the signal. The route would set & lock in but the signal itself would remain at danger; there was, however, an indication on the rear of the signal to show the driver that the route was set and the Appendix instructions then allowed for the train to be dispatched with no further fuss.
York had similar except the signal would still clear from what I've seen (the signals around the station were rear wheel replaced anyway)

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Possible Bug with P5 at Derby 13/09/2018 at 20:47 #112146
clive
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kbarber in post 112134 said:
The route would set & lock in but the signal itself would remain at danger; there was, however, an indication on the rear of the signal to show the driver that the route was set
Such rear indicators are the one thing that are officially "amber" rather than "yellow" in the relevant standards. Well, "were" rather than "are" because they're no longer listed as a valid signal indication.

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