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Bridge strikes and rough rides

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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 16:36 #113039
Joe S
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Hi all,

Just a couple of suggestions - not sure if they can be worked on or included at all.

1) Bridge strikes.
I know that some sims have a major disruption (Edinburgh and Cambridge) element built in - could this be extended to including bridge strikes? In reality (as I'm sure most of you know), it is not always a case of immediately stopping trains after a strike.
Some are graded as red, in which case it needs to be examined by a specially trained bridge examiner before trains can run.
Some are amber or double amber, with initial restrictions of 5mph and then (IIRC) 20mph until an examiner gets there.
This may be too much of a stretch with the data that would be required etc, though.

2) Rough rides.
Drivers report rough rides every now and again over certain sections of line. Generally a 20mph caution etc., will be placed in the affected area until P-way attend and examine / fix the issue (or say no fault found).

I'm not exactly sure how this may be inputted into a sim though - would this be easy to implement in the core code?

What do people think?

Cheers,
Joe

Last edited: 01/11/2018 at 17:15 by Joe S
Reason: None given

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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 16:54 #113040
Hap
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I've never came across a bridge strike on the Edinburgh sim...

Craig

HAP
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 17:13 #113041
Trainfan344
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Can't say I've experienced one on Cambridge either.
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 17:14 #113042
Joe S
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Hap in post 113040 said:
I've never came across a bridge strike on the Edinburgh sim...

Craig
Trainfan344 in post 113041 said:
Can't say I've experienced one on Cambridge either.
My dodgy memory aside, what do people think of the ideas?

(I seem to remember Clive speaking of a 'major disruption' element, which may actually be to do with broken rails etc. Either way, I'll change my post above.)

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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 17:32 #113043
jc92
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Major disruption for Edinburgh was the airport tripwire activating and Cambridge had an option for single line working during engineering.

Im not sure about the bridge strike option as it would require a lot of reverse engineering to add data for every over and under bridge, most of which aren't marked on the panel.

The rough riding seems a reasonable option to add, of course the other one to add there would be a driver reporting poor adhesion.

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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 17:32 #113044
Hap
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I know Motherwell/Edinburgh/Paisley have a 'major failure/disruptive' event.

On difficult setting Motherwell has OHLE down at either one of two locations. (Between Uddingston Jn and Coatbridge Jn Mainline & Law jn - Shieldmuir Mail terminal)

Edinburgh has either Winchburgh Tunnel alarm or Airport trip wires or Wires down between Porotbello jn and Monktonhall Jn.

Paisley has Glasgow Airport Trip wires or Prestwick Trip wires.

Personally I would like to see a variation of location of OHLE wire problems/power trips.

Your issue with bridge strikes is that, unless you have locations of every bridge, and then target the correct TCs to impose a ESR/TSR.

HAP
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 17:40 #113045
headshot119
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jc92 in post 113043 said:
Major disruption for Edinburgh was the airport tripwire activating and Cambridge had an option for single line working during engineering.

Im not sure about the bridge strike option as it would require a lot of reverse engineering to add data for every over and under bridge, most of which aren't marked on the panel.

The rough riding seems a reasonable option to add, of course the other one to add there would be a driver reporting poor adhesion.
Bridge strikes aren't confined to underline bridges, overline bridges are also capable of being struck.

The rules around bridge strikes aren't simple either, light vehicle dispensation, BSE dispensation, and lots more come into it.

"James Street, Moorfields, Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool Central" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 19:47 #113048
58050
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I personally don't see the point of either. Bridge strike aren't that common & regarding rough rides on track you've already got that in terms of TSRs, which is what would be put in place if one was reported.
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 19:48 #113049
postal
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Lots of good stuff about the difficulty in regard to setting up something which would encompass every bridge on every sim, but what is the OP trying to achieve? The way I read it, the OP would like some variants on the failures theme to spice up the game and add a bit more realism at the same time. If my reading is correct, then needing the data for every bridge in every sim is over-complicating what is wanted. The OP's end game could probably be achieved with just a few bridges in the sim identified and enabled for the bridge strike scenario.

In regard to the marking of the bridges on the panel, what happens in real life. Presumably some sort of message arrives at the panel to tell the signaller that a bridge has been struck. How does the signaller identify which bridge it is and where it is located?

Lots of obstacles identified in this thread to having an all-singing, all-dancing solution but is that what is actually needed?

"Do not be fooled into believing that because a man is rich he is necessarily smart. There is ample proof to the contrary." - Julius Rosenwald (12/08/1862 – 06/01/1932) US merchant & philanthropist.
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 19:49 #113050
postal
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58050 in post 113048 said:
. . . regarding rough rides on track you've already got that in terms of TSRs, which is what would be put in place if one was reported.
Exactly, Pascal. What is the mechanism in SimSig for a driver to report a rough ride so that a TSR can be implemented?

"Do not be fooled into believing that because a man is rich he is necessarily smart. There is ample proof to the contrary." - Julius Rosenwald (12/08/1862 – 06/01/1932) US merchant & philanthropist.
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 19:57 #113051
headshot119
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58050 in post 113048 said:
I personally don't see the point of either. Bridge strike aren't that common & regarding rough rides on track you've already got that in terms of TSRs, which is what would be put in place if one was reported.
Bridge Strikes are surprisingly more common than you would think, they just don't have much of a service impact if they aren't classed as a "red bridge".

A rough ride would not result in a TSR initially, an ESR (likely without the boards) at best, a job stopper at worst.

postal in post 113049 said:
Lots of good stuff about the difficulty in regard to setting up something which would encompass every bridge on every sim, but what is the OP trying to achieve? The way I read it, the OP would like some variants on the failures theme to spice up the game and add a bit more realism at the same time. If my reading is correct, then needing the data for every bridge in every sim is over-complicating what is wanted. The OP's end game could probably be achieved with just a few bridges in the sim identified and enabled for the bridge strike scenario.

In regard to the marking of the bridges on the panel, what happens in real life. Presumably some sort of message arrives at the panel to tell the signaller that a bridge has been struck. How does the signaller identify which bridge it is and where it is located?

Lots of obstacles identified in this thread to having an all-singing, all-dancing solution but is that what is actually needed?
Generally... Control ring you and advise you a bridge has been struck (Occasionally it's other rail staff, or members of the public direct), they give you the bridge number, you then look it up in the bridge strike appendix for your box and then take the appropriate action.

"James Street, Moorfields, Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool Central" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 19:59 #113052
58050
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All bridges over the network be it road over rail, or rail over road have placards on either side with the bridge reference number, location & bridge indentificatopn number. The contact phone number would be the Network Rail control number responsible for the line of route control who in turn would advise the signalling centre responsible where the bridge strike has occured. The line(s) would be blocked to traffic until a bridge examiner had carried out a survey of the bridge structure. Once he has passed the bridge safe for traffic to pass over or under it then & only then would the lines be re-opened for traffic to pass.
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 20:07 #113053
postal
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In regard to bridge strikes, Network Rail has a page on its web-site covering the issue. The most recent data is for 2017/2018 when there were 1801 underline bridge strikes and 132 overline bridge strikes reported. The most frequently hit bridge was bridge BGK/1568: Stuntley Road (A142) in Ely, Cambridgeshire which was struck 32 times.

So strikes are not common but some sites would certainly seem to justify their inclusion in the failure regime. After all, we have the tripwires for the airports in the McSims and how often are they activated in real life?

"Do not be fooled into believing that because a man is rich he is necessarily smart. There is ample proof to the contrary." - Julius Rosenwald (12/08/1862 – 06/01/1932) US merchant & philanthropist.
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 20:24 #113055
MarkC
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postal in post 113053 said:
In regard to bridge strikes, Network Rail has a page on its web-site covering the issue. The most recent data is for 2017/2018 when there were 1801 underline bridge strikes and 132 overline bridge strikes reported. The most frequently hit bridge was bridge BGK/1568: Stuntley Road (A142) in Ely, Cambridgeshire which was struck 32 times.

So strikes are not common but some sites would certainly seem to justify their inclusion in the failure regime. After all, we have the tripwires for the airports in the McSims and how often are they activated in real life?
I would imagine that the trip wires are wired into an alarm or automatic signal replacement in a signal box.

I am not questioning NR documents, but according to Google Maps the road that the bridge is on is called rather fittingly Bridge Rd

It's not my fault! I was left unsupervised.
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 01/11/2018 at 20:38 #113056
Peter Bennet
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Coding it would essentially be a variation on the theme covered in the Sims referred to above. Also, Victoria LUL has randomised platform incidents based on the same idea.

Peter

I can promise you this, if I didn’t pay the price for the things we both know I did do, I’m certainly not going to pay the price for the things I didn’t do. - Frank Underwood
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 02/11/2018 at 09:46 #113060
Late Turn
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58050 in post 113052 said:
All bridges over the network be it road over rail, or rail over road have placards on either side with the bridge reference number, location & bridge indentificatopn number. The contact phone number would be the Network Rail control number responsible for the line of route control who in turn would advise the signalling centre responsible where the bridge strike has occured. The line(s) would be blocked to traffic until a bridge examiner had carried out a survey of the bridge structure. Once he has passed the bridge safe for traffic to pass over or under it then & only then would the lines be re-opened for traffic to pass.

Not necessarily - as above, there are various dispensations to allow traffic to pass with or without restrictions whilst waiting for someone to inspect the bridge.

The last one I dealt with, I found out about because the MOM just happened to be in the adjacent box (the bridge was in the section between the two of us) when Control rang his mobile to find out where he was and to ask if he'd mind popping to have a look. I don't suppose we'd have known anything about it until much later otherwise...

It'd certainly be an interesting feature to consider, either way, maybe just for the relatively few bridges at which this is a regular event!

I'm not sure how you'd caution drivers in Simsig though, either for a bridge that they can pass over/under with restrictions or following a report of a rough ride - since you have to pass specific information rather than just the generic "proceed with caution" or "examine the line" options?

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Bridge strikes and rough rides 02/11/2018 at 13:45 #113064
Stephen Fulcher
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Just ask him to examine the line, that is as good as a caution in simsig.
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 02/11/2018 at 21:50 #113071
clive
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Joe S in post 113042 said:

Trainfan344 in post 113041 said:
Can't say I've experienced one on Cambridge either.

[…]
(I seem to remember Clive speaking of a 'major disruption' element, which may actually be to do with broken rails etc. Either way, I'll change my post above.)
Ahem.

Cambridge *does* have a bridge strike. In fact, the bridge strike in Cambridge is the first major disruption element that any SimSig simulation ever had!

It's not in the manual nor was it advertised. I did say once or twice that there was a "hidden feature X" (or some such words). I still remember the indignation on the forum the first time that someone ran into it. (Unfortunately the post seems to be too old to have been saved.)

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Bridge strikes and rough rides 03/11/2018 at 12:21 #113093
Splodge
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Seem to recall it only applied on the hard scenario setting which further limited the odds of finding it.

I think your Edinburgh sim had something similar, a fault on the airport trip wire which closed lines and then left an epic TSR in its wake IIRC!

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 03/11/2018 at 13:29 #113097
clive
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Splodge in post 113093 said:
Seem to recall it only applied on the hard scenario setting which further limited the odds of finding it.
That's right. Makes "hard" harder than you expected!

Splodge in post 113093 said:

I think your Edinburgh sim had something similar, a fault on the airport trip wire which closed lines and then left an epic TSR in its wake IIRC!
Not my sim; Peter's.

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Bridge strikes and rough rides 03/11/2018 at 14:55 #113100
Splodge
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Apologies! :$

But yes, it certainly did - the nature of the failure put you as much in the seat of control as it did a signaller!

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Bridge strikes and rough rides 03/11/2018 at 17:58 #113102
Joe S
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postal in post 113049 said:
Lots of good stuff about the difficulty in regard to setting up something which would encompass every bridge on every sim, but what is the OP trying to achieve? The way I read it, the OP would like some variants on the failures theme to spice up the game and add a bit more realism at the same time. <snip>
Lots of obstacles identified in this thread to having an all-singing, all-dancing solution but is that what is actually needed?
The bold is exactly spot on, postal.

I know it's the nature of the sims to be 100% accurate wherever possible and in scenarios from a signalling perspective etc., but just a bit of different variety would be good at times I feel.

I'm glad, in a way, that this thread has got the amount of posts it has! Good to debate these things...

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