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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 26/03/2019 at 12:04 #116780
jc92
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I have uploaded this timetable awaiting approval.

It was written a while ago and was awaiting resolution on a couple of bugs which has not happened as of yet.

I've decided to make it available anyway for anyone to try/enjoy as they see fit and I will support any updates required if Sim bugs are fixed or any further timetable issues occur. it should be clearly noted this timetable WILL currently require the user to use the F2 train list to work around the odd issue.

the main three main issues currently are:

Matlock GF not allowing trains to be shut in. one unit is booked to lock in and join a later service. this has been amended as an STP ECS working to derby instead.

Trains departing Nadins Sdg do not step their timetables and will require this doing manually.

there is no path available for trains to come from Bardon Hill through towards Moira West. this affects a couple of MGR workings and a Departmental working which have been left out the timetable currently.

please post any further issues or errors on this thread as they pop up. the timetable has not been fully tested so I would appreciate any feedback. I plan to update this version with full details of Pool codes and full stock details as and when time allows and there may be a few extra services to add in.

Joe

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 26/03/2019 at 15:53 #116797
Banners88
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Looking forward to getting my hands on this once admin approved!
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 26/03/2019 at 17:02 #116800
Phil-jmw
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Thanks for uploading this Joe. I worked in Derby TOPS Office at that time and have been long looking forward to a Derby TT from that era as it was a busy time with all the mail trains at Derby and the many associated shunt moves, still plenty of freight (much of which had relief at Derby), many light engine moves on and off 4 Shed and all the ECS to and from Etches Park. I just have one query posted below:-

jc92 in post 116780 said:


there is no path available for trains to come from Bardon Hill through towards Moira West. this affects a couple of MGR workings and a Departmental working which have been left out the timetable currently.

Joe
I'm not sure why this can be as the Welton Blockade TT (which for some reason is not on the downloads page) contains various trains running from Bardon Hill to Moira West and beyond.

Regards,

Phil.

Last edited: 26/03/2019 at 17:03 by Phil-jmw
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 26/03/2019 at 18:44 #116806
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Phil-jmw in post 116800 said:
Thanks for uploading this Joe. I worked in Derby TOPS Office at that time and have been long looking forward to a Derby TT from that era as it was a busy time with all the mail trains at Derby and the many associated shunt moves, still plenty of freight (much of which had relief at Derby), many light engine moves on and off 4 Shed and all the ECS to and from Etches Park. I just have one query posted below:-

jc92 in post 116780 said:


there is no path available for trains to come from Bardon Hill through towards Moira West. this affects a couple of MGR workings and a Departmental working which have been left out the timetable currently.

Joe
I'm not sure why this can be as the Welton Blockade TT (which for some reason is not on the downloads page) contains various trains running from Bardon Hill to Moira West and beyond.

Regards,

Phil.
When I worked on a Derby timetable for myself I found a way of doing it.


Enter at Bardon Hill (Down Goods) then

Mantle Lane TC
Lounge Jcn
Moira West
etc.....

It validates and works fine. See the attachment

Like Phil I worked in Derby PSB in this period so I'm looking forward to trying this one once I've got my current project out of the way.

Regards,

Vince


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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 26/03/2019 at 19:08 #116808
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Phil/Vince,

thanks for that. I tried every combination possible other than using the T.C. location so I will add the offending trains for next release.

I'd welcome any input or feedback you both have as doubtless there will some errors or ommissions you can assist with.

Joe.

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 02/04/2019 at 00:41 #117131
Phil-jmw
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jc92 in post 116808 said:
Phil/Vince,

thanks for that. I tried every combination possible other than using the T.C. location so I will add the offending trains for next release.

I'd welcome any input or feedback you both have as doubtless there will some errors or ommissions you can assist with.

Joe.
Hi Joe,

First of all let me say what a great timetable this is and I'm thoroughly enjoying it, not least because it is bringing back many memories of my time on the back desk in Derby box at around that time.

I'm now up to 1000hrs and have noticed a couple of minor anomalies, one or two things which didn't seem quite right and made me dig back through my memory to recall how they were done, and when I encountered a few gaps (it was a long time ago!) I sought the advice of one of the signalmen who was there in 1992 and who has confirmed a few things for me.

First the minor anomalies:-
1. 5F51 0530 Etches Park - Burton does not stop and reverse behind DY141 Sig at Burton Leicester Jn, he instead calls up waiting at DY139 Sig Birmingham Curve Jn.
2. 2M04 0558 Boston - Matlock is booked to stand at Derby Pfm 1 0815 - 0917 but this clashes with 1E27 which is booked in Pfm 1 0851 - 0853. Is this a platform error for 2M04?

The other things I refer to are to do with ECS and light engine movements to and from Etches Park and the various coal train workings in the area.

Firstly the ECS movements. I see that a number of loco-hauled ECS movements of 6-8 vehicles are propelled out of Etches Park to Derby station (eg 5V35, 5C06, 5C12, 5G70, 5V37, 5V40). At the time of this TT, a limit of two vehicles max were allowed to be propelled in either direction between Etches Park and the station. In reality these ECS moves were drawn out of Etches Park by either the Etches Park jocko (Cl.08 shunt loco) or the station jocko, with the locos to work these trains coming off 4 Shed direct to the station to attach to their respective ECS (5C06 and 5C12 were very different but I'll come to those in a minute). Loco's to work trains going north from Derby came off 4 Shed and went to Etches Park to draw their own ECS out to the station.

5C06 and 5C12. What happened here was that 5C12 ECS was drawn to the very north end of Pfm.4 by one of the shunt loco's. Shunt loco detaches. 5C06 stock was drawn out also onto Pfm.4 by 1C12 train engine (previously LD 4 Shed - E.Pk) which then detached and attached to its own train. 0C06 loco for 1C06 went LD direct from 4 Shed to west end of Pfm.4 and attached to its own train.

Coal Traffic. At this time coal trains were operated by East Midlands Freight who produced a weekly coal plan based on the demands of the customers (the NCB and the power generators). The plan was very fluid and could change daily or even hourly to meet changing demands. As such very few of the trains that ran were WTT trains. Coal train schedules were created weekly from the coal plan on a Sunday morning by the TOPS clerks in Nottingham TOPS Office.
Willington:- In 1992 coal trains ran from Barrow Hill, Denby and Lounge to Willington (those from Lounge set back into Willington Power Station from DY310 GPL Sig on the Up Challaston at Stenson Jn). The number of trains per day varied but it was not unusual for the Denby branch to see 4 trains each way per day in the summer to Willington and/or Drakelow (IIRC there were less in winter due to short days and the number of Trainman Operated Crossings on the branch which would need to be operated in the dark).
Drakelow:- Drakelow was served by trains from both Denby, Nadins Sdgs and, I believe, Lounge. 7Bxx went to Drakelow A&B, 7Cxx went to Drakelow C. There was also a cripple trip which I seem to recall (I'm waiting confirmation) ran from Mantle Lane with cripples from there, attached cripples at Drakelow, detached at Burton MGR and attached good wagons for Mantle Lane. This trip ran at night. It may also have run to and from Toton. Also periodically at night there wast the jocko swap at Burton MGR, whereby a Cl.08 would make the (very slow!) journey at night from Toton to Burton and the jocko at Burton would return to Toton for maintenance.
Mantle Lane:- This was a busy location which primarily served Coalfields Farm opencast site via a short branch from Coalville Jn, just to the east (Bardon Hill side) of Coalville Town LC, but unfortunately isn't simulated here. Coalfields Farm used to 'preload' alot of trains one one day to go to Rugeley the following day (by this time very little if any traffic went to Didcot from here).
Rawdon:- Marked on the sim as Swains Park Opencast, Rawdon colliery saw two-three trains per day (I can't for the life of me remember where this coal went), and interestingly, Rawdon often received one loaded train per day of coal from Coventry colliery (Keresley?) for blending with Rawdon coal.

Aside from coal the Coalville branch also saw two return ballast trips per day from Bescot Engineers Sdgs to Cliffe Hill (later Stud Farm) and the Bardon Hill 'Prismo' tanks ran once or twice per week (I cannot recall where they originated from).

Chaddesden Sdgs:- They are not in the TT but there were two daily ballast trips from Chaddesden (Chad) Sdgs to Mountsorrel, T91 and T93 trips. The locos went light (individually) from 4 Shed to Chad, worked empty wagons to Mountsorrel and returned loads to either Chad or Sandiacre Ballast Sdgs as required, then LD back to 4 Shed.

4 Shed:- In addition to all the planned light engine movements on and off 4 Shed, there were plenty of ad hoc light loco movements to and from (including, but not restricted to) Toton (0F54), Saltley (0G/0Z96), Bescot (0G/0Z98), Bristol (0Z74), Leicester (occasionally) (0F94), York, Neville Hill, Crewe (0Z21), to name but a few. LD's for Derby ran as 0F81, or 0Z81 if coming from another region.

At this time RfD also used to run light engines between Crewe and Tinsley & vv for fuel and maintenance at the latter via the North Staffs, especially on nights before the North Staffs signalboxes night shift was withdrawn, I think around 1993-4.

As can be seen Joe, if the ECS movements at Derby can be tweaked and the other things I've talked about can be added to the TT it will considerably swell the workload, the variety of traffic and enhance what is already a great TT.

My considerable thanks go to Nick Allsop, former Derby PSB signalman, for his help in filling in many of the blanks in the foregoing information.

I hope this is of help Joe.


Regards,

Phil.

Last edited: 02/04/2019 at 00:55 by Phil-jmw
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 02/04/2019 at 07:40 #117139
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Hi phil,

Thanks for the feedback.

In response:

5F51- this is a sim bug which I had forgotten about and requires a manual reversal.

2M04/1E27 - I don't remember this clash but if its there it's as the WTT/SWB. I'll review it when I get a chance.

Propelling stock off EPS - thanks for this. It wasn't clear which method was used at this time so I'll rework these correctly for V2.

5C06/12 - I can amend this fairly easily for V2.

Coal- this is as per the coal plan documents pascal gave me for 1993 December and October so I've used closest fits. I agree Willington seems too quiet. I've asked for additional information

Ballast trips do still need to be added so this will be reviewed also.

LD movements - I think there's one currently from crewe to Derby but I can add some more with rules/decisions to vary what happens.

Glad you're enjoying it. As we speak I've currently added the missing trains from bardon/coalfields farm in and amended various pool codes and allocations.

Joe

Last edited: 02/04/2019 at 07:49 by jc92
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 02/04/2019 at 10:57 #117147
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Hi Joe,

I'm glad you've been able to make some use of the information supplied by myself and Nick. I look forward to seeing all the extra trains and shunt moves. Derby really was a busy place late into the night with the mails and the ECS to 4 Shed, Etches Park and going through the wash. Incidentally, when sets went through the wash they only came part way out onto the pilot or connecting line. This was because they had a driver each end and once the rear power car cleared the hand points at the end of the wash road they shunted straight back into the depot without coming completely out of the depot. Also, when they came off 4 Shed they would often stop behind DY476 GPL on the Pilot line (again because they had 2 drivers on) and go around to Etches Park from there. With so many sets to get fuelled and washed the signalman, in order to keep things fluid, would tell the driver where to stop and change ends (on the Pilot, Dn Goods at Derby North or round Chad Curve behind DY472 Sig) in order to not keep sets waiting out for too long. The Centre Panel man really earned his money from 2200 to around 0200 when it started to quiet down a little.

I've just discovered another error with 2M04, arriving Marlock at 0948 and shown to form 2F08 0900 Matlock - Derby. I think I've discovered the earlier problem with 2M04 standing all that time at Derby. Should it not depart Derby at 0817 instead of 0917? That way it would be at Matlock at 0848 to form 5M04 0849 shunt to Peak Rail (which I see from the TT notes is an issue with Matlock GF). I did think at the time that 2M04 standing for so long created a large gap in the Matlock service. I have to admit I don't recall units having to shut themselves in at Matlock, but it was a long time ago, and now I come to think of it I've an idea that in 1992 the Matlocks, while having TOPS train schedules, were not live in TRUST and may even have just ran up and down with the same reporting number as the service was essentially self-contained. I seem to recall it was only with the start of privatisation in 1994 and the introduction of performance regimes that Matlock services were given individual reporting numbers, their schedules became live in TRUST and we had to start reporting them. Again, I'm calling on memory for some of this, so if anyone reading this has more accurate information I'll happily stand corrected.

I don't know if this is a TT bug or a sim bug with Denby as an entry location, but 7A24 0835 Denby - Ratcliffe was reported it would be 12 mins late entering the sim, I'm now up to 1020 and it still hasn't entered.


Regards,

Phil.

Last edited: 02/04/2019 at 11:02 by Phil-jmw
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 02/04/2019 at 11:05 #117148
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Phil-jmw in post 117147 said:
Hi Joe,

I'm glad you've been able to make some use of the information supplied by myself and Nick. I look forward to seeing all the extra trains and shunt moves. Derby really was a busy place late into the night with the mails and the ECS to 4 Shed, Etches Park and going through the wash. Incidentally, when sets went through the wash they only came part way out onto the pilot or connecting line. This was because they had a driver each end and once the rear power car cleared the hand points at the end of the wash road they shunted straight back into the depot without coming completely out of the depot. Also, when they came off 4 Shed they would often stop behind DY476 GPL on the Pilot line (again because they had 2 drivers on) and go around to Etches Park from there. With so many sets to get fuelled and washed the signalman, in order to keep things fluid, would tell the driver where to stop and change ends (on the Pilot, Dn Goods at Derby North or round Chad Curve behind DY472 Sig) in order to not keep sets waiting out for too long. The Centre Panel man really earned his money from 2200 to around 0200 when it started to quiet down a little.

I've just discovered another error with 2M04, arriving Marlock at 0948 and shown to form 2F08 0900 Matlock - Derby. I think I've discovered the earlier problem with 2M04 standing all that time at Derby. Should it not depart Derby at 0817 instead of 0917? That way it would a) remove the platform clash with 1E27 and b) be at Matlock at 0848 to form 2F08 0900 Matlock - Derby instead of 5M04 0849 shunt to Peak Rail (which I see from the TT notes is an issue with Matlock GF). I did think at the time that 2M04 standing for so long created a large gap in the Matlock service. I have to admit I don't recall units having to shut themselves in at Matlock, but it was a long time ago, and now I come to think of it I've an idea that in 1992 the Matlocks, while having TOPS train schedules, were not live in TRUST and may even have just ran up and down with the same reporting number as the service was essentially self-contained. I seem to recall it was only with the start of privatisation in 1994 and the introduction of performance regimes that Matlock services were given individual reporting numbers, their schedules became live in TRUST and we had to start reporting them. Again, I'm calling on memory for some of this, so if anyone reading this has more accurate information I'll happily stand corrected.

I don't know if this is a TT bug or a sim bug with Denby as an entry location, but 7A24 0835 Denby - Ratcliffe was reported it would be 12 mins late entering the sim, I'm now up to 1020 and it still hasn't entered.


Regards,

Phil.
I've also noticed as well that 2F08 is shown on arrival at Derby to join with 2F07, should that not be form 2F07?

Last edited: 02/04/2019 at 11:16 by Phil-jmw
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 02/04/2019 at 11:30 #117152
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Denby trains not entering seems to be a sim issue. The timetables are valid and there's no delays. I've noticed the same thing.

I'll review the 2M04 issue tonight. I think you may well have solved that one.

Apologies for the issues. The timetable wasn't fully tested due to the problems with the sim but I appreciate being a Guinea pig!

The shunts out of EPS and back can he set to shunt "half way" out of EPS before dropping back in but It will cause you to get penalised for not getting a slot/permission to go back in.

Keep them coming!

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 02/04/2019 at 12:07 #117154
Phil-jmw
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jc92 in post 117152 said:
Denby trains not entering seems to be a sim issue. The timetables are valid and there's no delays. I've noticed the same thing.

It's a shame about the various bugs that various people have reported this sim has, because most of them appear quite minor but prevent timetables being written to take the sim to its full potential. THe modern TT's are ok but very predictably clock-face, whereas this is the first TT that makes use of more of the shunt moves and of the locations for where traffic no longer exists in the modern world.

I'll review the 2M04 issue tonight. I think you may well have solved that one.

Apologies for the issues. The timetable wasn't fully tested due to the problems with the sim but I appreciate being a Guinea pig!

No apology necessary Joe, I'm glad be of help and quite enjoying putting to good use some of my dormant grey matter trying to think of what we did back then, and having a good chuckle at some of the memories this has jogged.

The shunts out of EPS and back can he set to shunt "half way" out of EPS before dropping back in but It will cause you to get penalised for not getting a slot/permission to go back in.

Personally I run all the sims as realistically as possible rather than paying attention to performance scores so if setting it to 'Half way' loses me a few points for the sake of realism then so be it.

Incidentally, in real life it used to be possible to set a route from DY426 Park to the Pilot and then from DY427 Pilot to Etches Park to allow the Park to shunt back and forth to their heart's content. In reality this was never used as the two routes had a habit of sticking in, so instead they just cleared 426 to shunt half way out off the wash. When something wanted to come out the supervisor would tell the signalman when he could return 426 to Danger to then set a new route for a departing move, or tell him to let a departing move leave on the existing signal and then take it back. If the Park had 426 and the signalman had something to depart south via the Pilot or Connecting lines he would ring the Park supervisor first and ask to take the shunt back.

Keep them coming!

Last edited: 02/04/2019 at 12:08 by Phil-jmw
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 04/04/2019 at 16:45 #117210
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5E60 needs a minor tweak when arriving on the Down Goods at Derby Joe. The current stopping position is 'Default' but the Park jocko which comes out to drag him into the Park cannot get inside clear behind DY448 dolly . Can you amend the stopping position for the next version to 'Far End' or 'Far End Exact' please?

Cheerz,

Phil.

PS I'm still waiting to find out more gen on the vans that come up with the station draw.

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 11/10/2019 at 20:25 #120913
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Not sure whether this is a bug: 6M01 is scheduled to be taken over by 1V40 but it has no Branston Jn timing point (with arrival and passing time) like other trains that are being taken over there. (I forgot to loop it - decided to loop it at Elford instead.)
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 11/10/2019 at 23:26 #120937
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Albert in post 120913 said:
Not sure whether this is a bug: 6M01 is scheduled to be taken over by 1V40 but it has no Branston Jn timing point (with arrival and passing time) like other trains that are being taken over there. (I forgot to loop it - decided to loop it at Elford instead.)
not a bug. its not officially booked to stop at branston. it has GL at Clay Mills to show its looped then is booked to be overtaken on the move before rejoining the ML after 1V40 passes. timings are as per the WTT.

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 13/10/2019 at 15:35 #120990
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I think you ticked pass by accident at Burton on 1E25:

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 13/10/2019 at 16:24 #120994
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There is a conflict between 1M06 and 1M79 on departure from Derby towards Sheet Stores Jn. Does 1M06 leave Derby too early by accident? 1M79 is scheduled just half a minute later and does not call at Long Eaton.
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 15/10/2019 at 17:06 #121058
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Another conflict: 1M00/5M00 (15:50 to 16:10) with 1M12 (16:01 to 16:05) on platform 1 in Derby.
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 15/10/2019 at 20:34 #121063
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Albert in post 120994 said:
There is a conflict between 1M06 and 1M79 on departure from Derby towards Sheet Stores Jn. Does 1M06 leave Derby too early by accident? 1M79 is scheduled just half a minute later and does not call at Long Eaton.
I don't recall coming across this when I tested the timetable, and I've played the TT through a couple of times since its release.

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 15/10/2019 at 20:41 #121064
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Albert in post 121058 said:
Another conflict: 1M00/5M00 (15:50 to 16:10) with 1M12 (16:01 to 16:05) on platform 1 in Derby.
I don't recall there being an issue when I tested the TT, and I've played the TT through once or twice since its release. I haven't got access to the sim right now, but it looks like 1M12 arrives and departs from the west end of 1 behind 1/5M00, leaving 5M00 to do what ir does after 1M12 has departed, so potentially no conflict, just two trains booked on the same platform which is quite normal. I'll have a look later at this and 1M79 when I have my laptop open.

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 15/10/2019 at 22:58 #121068
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It will work if you let 1M00 call further along the platform. Right now it's mostly on 1A, only its loco 0M00 occupies the 1B track circuit.
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 16/10/2019 at 00:56 #121075
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So just an issue with the stopping position of 1M00 then. I can't think why this didn't come up in testing.
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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 16/10/2019 at 10:11 #121079
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It could be that you attached the EPSP loco after 1M12 had left during testing. The loco enters rather early.

Edit: 1V63/1V64 also conflict at Derby platform 4. This is not a stopping position issue.

Edit 2: 5V64's stopping position is also incorrect. I put it in P3, but there it does not leave space for a joining run-round loco.

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 16/10/2019 at 11:17 #121080
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Albert in post 120994 said:
There is a conflict between 1M06 and 1M79 on departure from Derby towards Sheet Stores Jn. Does 1M06 leave Derby too early by accident? 1M79 is scheduled just half a minute later and does not call at Long Eaton.
I've checked the WTT and this is correct or in other words an error with the original planning.

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 16/10/2019 at 11:24 #121081
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Albert in post 121068 said:
It will work if you let 1M00 call further along the platform. Right now it's mostly on 1A, only its loco 0M00 occupies the 1B track circuit.
Strange. 1M00 is set a far exact (FX) stopping point to ensure this doesn't happen. It should stop with the locos buffers on the east end of the platform.

regarding 1V63/64 - I've got V63 booked P6 and V64 booked P4 with no clash?

can I check you're running the latest version of the timetable named Winter Tuesday rather than summer Tuesday? if so that may explain the 1M00 issue and 1V64/63 issues as they would've been picked up and resolved in the latest version hence Phils confusion as he tested it for me. I recall 1M00 being an issue.

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Derby 1992 Summer Timetable 16/10/2019 at 11:37 #121082
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You're right, I have the summer one here. I probably downloaded it a few months ago only to play it now.
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