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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable

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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 25/04/2019 at 19:59 #117826
VInce
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Peter and all,

I placed this in the "simulation" category. If a mod thinks it is mis-placed please feel free to move it.

Since the release of my Exeter early 80s timetable, I've received a number of comments about the method of working at Hackney sidings.

Trains are not offered out or in so, when running a disrupted timetable it is quite possible to create a standoff situation, with a train reversing to be ready to go into the sidings when one enters from the sidings without warning. Once one enters, it is impossible to set a route into the sidings and a stand-off occurs.

Additionally, when running the "standard" simulation option, ECS trains from Hackney Sidings can enter very early indeed, in the cases I have experienced up to 45 minutes early. Clearly it is impossible to block a platform for so long in the morning and evening without causing major disruption but if the train is not signalled into the station then nothing can move the other way. Thus the station is blocked by trains waiting for the sidings and the sidings are blocked waiting for a platform to become available.

Is it possible for the method of working to be changed so as trains are offered from Hackney with the option of refusal, similar to the method of working at Riverside Yard West End?

Secondly, as a result of this issue, I'm considering issuing an amended version of the timetable which, all other things being equal, forces ECS trains to enter on-time at Hackney Yard as a sort of work-around. At least this would make entry times predictable and, I believe, more realistic.

Of the users who have been kind enough to download and try this timetable could you let me know whether you think another version is needed?

Vince

Last edited: 26/04/2019 at 01:38 by VInce
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 26/04/2019 at 08:25 #117829
Peter Bennet
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I can change it from a type Notify to a type Permission.

The delay factor (includes early) is the core code default for the class of train.

Peter

One of the great problems of our age is that we are governed by people who care more about feelings than they do about thoughts and ideas.
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 26/04/2019 at 09:54 #117830
d233
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Peter, it must be corrected !!!!
Last edited: 26/04/2019 at 09:55 by d233
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 26/04/2019 at 10:29 #117831
VInce
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Peter,

That would be most helpful.

Just one proviso, though. Refusing permission must not mean that the sidings will not accept anything until the offered train is accepted otherwise the same situation exists.

Thanks again....

Vince

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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 26/04/2019 at 12:01 #117832
Peter Bennet
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d233 in post 117830 said:
Peter, it must be corrected !!!!
I don't think that's the right verb.

Peter

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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 26/04/2019 at 12:36 #117833
norman B
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I worked around the problems by ticking the enter on time box!

I am on a Monday TT.

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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 26/04/2019 at 21:18 #117861
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I've found a similar issue at Goodrington CS when I mistakenly put a terminator in P2!
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 27/04/2019 at 18:10 #117872
VInce
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Hi,

Yes there is as issue at Goodrington as well as Hackney and Exeter SP with early entry of ECS trains too with or without incorrect platforming.

I don't know what's changed but I don't recollect this VERY early entry issue before the last core code update. Has something changed please and if so, can it be changed back? This early entry is close to breaking this Exeter early 80s timetable which means over a year's work of my time involving research, data accumulation and entry, and extensive testing up the spout.

I'm not going to anticipate any changes to the core code soon so I'll be issuing a work-around update for the timetable which will, all other things being equal, present all ECS trains on time at the entry point which is not perfect, but about the best I can do for the 100 or so users who have been kind enough to download it. ECS trains never present as early as they are doing now so, apart from anything else its unrealistic for a modern timetable, let alone an historic one.

Its a shame I have to do it anyway but its the only way of making it work as it should.

Vince

Last edited: 27/04/2019 at 18:20 by VInce
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 27/04/2019 at 23:26 #117879
Peter Bennet
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I've just run a test timetable 4 times with trains entering at Goodrington and Hackney and every train entered within seconds of its due time.
What launch option did you use in your case(s)?

Peter

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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 28/04/2019 at 01:45 #117883
VInce
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Peter,

Thanks for your help.

I used the "standard" scenario as I have done several times during testing without any problem. Its not until I started getting comments about Hackney that I found the issue.

When I tested it subsequently in "standard" mode I got the following (tested up to 1100 so far)

5B05/ZDB291 due to enter at 0640, entered over 30 mins early from Hackney. I had to run it out because I knew it blocked in other movements which were due to enter before 0640 so I ran it into P2, leaving nowhere for 5A03 (due 0615 and running on time) to run round and bring the station and Hackney Sidings to a stand until 0650 when something departed. In reality, it would have been refused by the signaller until it could be accommodated.

5E37/ZHA583 entered 18 mins early from Goodrington blocking the engine already in Goodrington running round 2B18/ZGE516 in P2 to work 2B21/ZFG653. Due to the layout at Paignton this creates a total blockage and would not have happened in reality as the shunter in charge of Goodrington would realise this.

I don't recollect any of this happening when the timetable was tested under disrupted conditions (as it was several times) so either I was extremely lucky or something has changed.

I guess, going with your earlier suggestion, not only Hackney needs changing to a "permission required to enter" but Goodrington as well. Also refusing a train for 5, 10 or 15 minutes must not block in other movements waiting to leave. However it seems odd that there is now a need to do this when there wasn't earlier.

I'll do some more testing and see what I can come up with but if you can change those two it would be a big help.

Vince

Last edited: 28/04/2019 at 05:37 by VInce
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 28/04/2019 at 09:12 #117887
Peter Bennet
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Ran some more tests with 10 duplicates of each train and in Standard mode (so 20 trains)

Test 1 - 1x2 mins early, 1x1 min late
Test 2 - 1x3min early, 2x3 late, 2x1 late, 1x20 late (LOP),
Test 3 - 1x3min early,
Test 4 - 1x9min late, 1x2 early, 1x1 late, 1x1 early

So certainly there are early trains, though so far a maximum of 3 mins early is what I've found so far.

Note you don't need to run the timetable, just launch the sim and look at the each train's timetable and the delay box.

Peter

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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 28/04/2019 at 09:15 #117888
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Peter Bennet in post 117887 said:
Note you don't need to run the timetable, just launch the sim and look at the each train's timetable and the delay box.

Peter
That misses the possibility that there is some bug in the core code that is interfering with the "delay" while the sim is running.

"If you can find something everyone agrees on, it's wrong." - Morris King Udall (15/06/1922 – 12/12/1998), American politician.
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 28/04/2019 at 10:30 #117890
VInce
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Peter Bennet in post 117887 said:
Ran some more tests with 10 duplicates of each train and in Standard mode (so 20 trains)

Test 1 - 1x2 mins early, 1x1 min late
Test 2 - 1x3min early, 2x3 late, 2x1 late, 1x20 late (LOP),
Test 3 - 1x3min early,
Test 4 - 1x9min late, 1x2 early, 1x1 late, 1x1 early

So certainly there are early trains, though so far a maximum of 3 mins early is what I've found so far.

Note you don't need to run the timetable, just launch the sim and look at the each train's timetable and the delay box.

Peter
Peter,

Doing this the way you suggest, here are some images of the simplifier I have generated during repeat testing - These were taken on a Thursday timetable but the simplifier shows a prospective delay whether they actually will run or not. Taken from backups at 0600 and 0950.

Hackney0950

5B20-1LH/ZBA837 is a train which runs or not according to the Choices and Decisions Module - shown running 16 mins early

Hackney0600

5B57/ZDD961 runs every day - shown running 36 mins early
5S84-MO/ZHB641 a Mondays-only train but shown running on the Thursday simplifier 43 minutes early
5B17-TUO/ZHE791 a Tuesdays only train but shown running of the Thursday simplifier 17 minutes early
5M86-1THO/ZGE675 a Thursday only train, so definitely running on this timetable shown 36 minutes early


Goodton0950

5E37/ZHA853 runs every day shown running 26 minutes early.

There a many many more examples I could show but I trust you have got my drift.

The images are attached below.


Vince





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Last edited: 28/04/2019 at 10:33 by VInce
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 28/04/2019 at 10:51 #117891
Peter Bennet
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Do those delays match what's shown in the f4 timetable delay box?
That might be indicative of John's point.

Peter

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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 28/04/2019 at 11:38 #117892
VInce
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Peter Bennet in post 117891 said:
Do those delays match what's shown in the f4 timetable delay box?
That might be indicative of John's point.

Peter
Not all, by any means

From the 0950 backup here's what the Performance Data View says..

5B57 35E/--/8E
5M86 29E/--/36L

In the F4 timetable delay box

5B57 -34
5M86 14
5S84-MO -1
5E37 13
5B17 44
5B20-1LH -16

Attached is the backup this was taken from...

Vince

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Last edited: 28/04/2019 at 12:43 by VInce
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 29/04/2019 at 15:59 #117917
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norman B in post 117833 said:
I worked around the problems by ticking the enter on time box!

I am on a Monday TT.


Excuse me for being a bit of a numpty, but where do I find the ‘on time’ box. I can’t remember.

My goodness, that was difficult, but I managed it.
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 29/04/2019 at 16:16 #117918
VInce
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bugsy in post 117917 said:
norman B in post 117833 said:
I worked around the problems by ticking the enter on time box!

I am on a Monday TT.


Excuse me for being a bit of a numpty, but where do I find the ‘on time’ box. I can’t remember.
Its on a particular train's Timetable editor "Train Details" tab. On the left hand side towards the bottom "enter on time"

However, there may be a better solution in the offing which is currently being tested.

See image below

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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 29/04/2019 at 16:56 #117919
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VInce in post 117918 said:
[quote=bugsy;post=117917

Excuse me for being a bit of a numpty, but where do I find the ‘on time’ box. I can’t remember.
Its on a particular train's Timetable editor "Train Details" tab. On the left hand side towards the bottom "enter on time"

However, there may be a better solution in the offing which is currently being tested.

See image below
[/quote]

Vince
I’m afraid that there’s a bit more numptiness coming on my part.
I'm aware of the location of the Timetable Editor, but I didn’t think that you could access it until a train has entered, in which case how can you tell a train to enter on time if it’s already entered early? What am I missing?
Notwithstanding the above, I have just allowed OB02 to enter from Hackney sidings early by mistake (not paying attention to the activities that it’s due to make) and there isn’t an entry time given in the tt editor. I suppose that I could have just left it standing at E704 until it was required.

I now have Newton Abbot snarled up for 10 minutes or so, but I can live with that on this occasion.

Would you agree that I should hold fire for now and wait the solution to be issued?

My goodness, that was difficult, but I managed it.
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 29/04/2019 at 17:00 #117920
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Alternatively, I could ask the driver to call back.
My goodness, that was difficult, but I managed it.
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 29/04/2019 at 17:20 #117921
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bugsy in post 117919 said:
What am I missing?
Timetable > Edit from the main control panel (the one with the clock) or F4, go to the Timetables tab, find your train and click on "Edit" (or a double click on the train in the listing).

"If you can find something everyone agrees on, it's wrong." - Morris King Udall (15/06/1922 – 12/12/1998), American politician.
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 29/04/2019 at 17:29 #117923
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postal in post 117921 said:
bugsy in post 117919 said:
What am I missing?
Timetable > Edit from the main control panel (the one with the clock) or F4, go to the Timetables tab, find your train and click on "Edit" (or a double click on the train in the listing).
Ah, yes.
Memory failure again on my part. Thanks for reminding me.

My goodness, that was difficult, but I managed it.
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 30/04/2019 at 09:22 #117952
VInce
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bugsy in post 117919 said:
VInce in post 117918 said:
[quote=bugsy;post=117917

Excuse me for being a bit of a numpty, but where do I find the ‘on time’ box. I can’t remember.
Its on a particular train's Timetable editor "Train Details" tab. On the left hand side towards the bottom "enter on time"

However, there may be a better solution in the offing which is currently being tested.

See image below
Vince
I’m afraid that there’s a bit more numptiness coming on my part.
I'm aware of the location of the Timetable Editor, but I didn’t think that you could access it until a train has entered, in which case how can you tell a train to enter on time if it’s already entered early? What am I missing?
Notwithstanding the above, I have just allowed OB02 to enter from Hackney sidings early by mistake (not paying attention to the activities that it’s due to make) and there isn’t an entry time given in the tt editor. I suppose that I could have just left it standing at E704 until it was required.

I now have Newton Abbot snarled up for 10 minutes or so, but I can live with that on this occasion.

Would you agree that I should hold fire for now and wait the solution to be issued?[/quote]

0B02 is the assisting engine for 1B02 and is controlled by a rule in which it enters when 1B02 passes Dawlish Warren. That is the reason it doesn't have a time as it is dependant on how 1B02 is running.

B
0B02 should leave Hackney and stand at Newton Abbot West either at the GPL main line or on the Paignton branch. When 1B02 arrives wait for the overlap to drop out and put 0B02 on the front of 1B02.

Vince

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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 30/04/2019 at 11:28 #117958
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VInce in post 117952 said:


0B02 is the assisting engine for 1B02 and is controlled by a rule in which it enters when 1B02 passes Dawlish Warren. That is the reason it doesn't have a time as it is dependant on how 1B02 is running.

B
0B02 should leave Hackney and stand at Newton Abbot West either at the GPL main line or on the Paignton branch. When 1B02 arrives wait for the overlap to drop out and put 0B02 on the front of 1B02.

Vince
I think that I should pay more attention to timetables in this sim in order to avoid a repeat of the situation.
Anyway, I'm currently at 07:20 but going to wait for the release of the solution to Hackney sidings before continuing.

Thanks for the tips

My goodness, that was difficult, but I managed it.
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 01/05/2019 at 12:20 #117988
VInce
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Hi all,

My thanks to Peter Bennet for the new version of the Exeter sim released this morning.

I have tested this across the full 24 hours of a Thursday timetable - essentially it will stop the VERY early entry of ECS trains at Goodrington, Hackney and Exeter FP when running a disrupted timetable. However you will still need to exercise care and check each time you require to run a train into these sidings that nothing is due out.

I still don't know what changed between the test stage and the release of the timetable, but, whatever it was (core code?) this sim release cures it.

Other types of trains will be unaffected.

Thanks again, Peter.

Vince

Last edited: 01/05/2019 at 12:43 by VInce
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Hackney Sidings Standoff - Early 80s timetable 01/05/2019 at 12:21 #117989
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VInce in post 117988 said:
Hi all,

My thanks to Peter Bennet for the new version of the Exeter sim released this morning.

I have tested this across the full 24 hours of a Thursday timetable - essentially it will stop the VERY early entry of ECS trains at Goodrington, Hackney and Exeter FP when running a disrupted timetable.

I still don't know what changed between the test stage and the release of the timetable, but, whatever it was (core code?) this sim release cures it.

Other types of trains will be unaffected.

Thanks again, Peter.

Vince
Nothing was changed in the core code which caused the issues you have experienced.

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