TRTS and the Proceed aspect

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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 14:22 #118881
bugsy
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Every time that I give a 'proceed' aspect from a platform that has a TRTS facility, but before TRTS is activated, I get a niggling feeling that I shouldn't.

In normal circumstances is this acceptable or should I wait for the TRTS signal?
And if it isn't acceptable, I assume that penalty points are given.

My goodness, that was difficult, but I managed it.
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 14:24 #118882
headshot119
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In real life, it depends on the location as to whether it's acceptable / a good idea.
"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 14:29 #118884
bugsy
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headshot119 in post 118882 said:
In real life, it depends on the location as to whether it's acceptable / a good idea.
In that case, does anybody know at what locations it is acceptable and those where it is perhaps frowned upon?

I'm playing the Exeter sim atm.

My goodness, that was difficult, but I managed it.
Last edited: 10/06/2019 at 14:30 by bugsy
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 14:48 #118885
jc92
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bugsy in post 118884 said:
headshot119 in post 118882 said:
In real life, it depends on the location as to whether it's acceptable / a good idea.
In that case, does anybody know at what locations it is acceptable and those where it is perhaps frowned upon?

I'm playing the Exeter sim atm.
From when I visited Devon Newton abbot never seemed to wait for it. Routes were set though immediately. Same at taunton.

I wouldn't let anything out from Exeter until its received.

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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 14:48 #118886
Danny252
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And as always, the era also matters! The instructions when Exeter was manually signalled stated that trains should not be set until TRTS was given. There was, however, a lot more unpredictability back then, in addition to longer station stops.
Last edited: 10/06/2019 at 14:49 by Danny252
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 14:51 #118887
HST125Scorton
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bugsy in post 118884 said:
headshot119 in post 118882 said:
In real life, it depends on the location as to whether it's acceptable / a good idea.
In that case, does anybody know at what locations it is acceptable and those where it is perhaps frowned upon?
Carlisle & Preston is a no-no, signallers await until the platform staff press the TRTS starter button before setting the route. Now this would be different if the train arriving was late most times Preston has the route set before it arrives.
As for trains passing through non-stop generally the routes are clear.
Overnight at Preston we have a massive habit of route setting freights 20 odd early before it passes and not even in our area.... 'whistles'

Aaron (AJRO)
Last edited: 10/06/2019 at 14:52 by HST125Scorton
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 15:41 #118888
Zoe
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I used to find that if I waited for the TRTS at Exeter then for departues on the Up Main, there was not enough time to get the barriers down in order for the signal to show a proceed aspect 30 seconds before departure so that the dispatch procedure could begin. I seem to remember in the real world around the year 2000 they would press the TRTS about 2 minutes before departure. This may not have been the case back in the days before CDL though, does anyone know if platform staff in general used wait until exact departure time back then before giving the station work complete signal or was this done 10 seconds or so before?
Last edited: 10/06/2019 at 16:00 by Zoe
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 15:44 #118889
bugsy
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[quote=jc92;post=118885

From when I visited Devon Newton abbot never seemed to wait for it. Routes were set though immediately. Same at taunton.

I wouldn't let anything out from Exeter until its received.[/quote]

Would you get your knuckles rapped if you did set a route from Exeter before receiving TRTS then?

Likewise with Preston and Carlisle

My goodness, that was difficult, but I managed it.
Last edited: 10/06/2019 at 15:46 by bugsy
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 15:55 #118891
HST125Scorton
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From my calculation its VT/TPE 40 seconds before departure and Northern 30 seconds before departure at Preston.
I noticed at Crewe on Saturday its the similar process but TRTS is pressed as soon as the train is arrived on the platform.

Aaron (AJRO)
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 16:07 #118892
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bugsy in post 118889 said:
[quote=jc92;post=118885

From when I visited Devon Newton abbot never seemed to wait for it. Routes were set though immediately. Same at taunton.

I wouldn't let anything out from Exeter until its received.
Would you get your knuckles rapped if you did set a route from Exeter before receiving TRTS then?

Likewise with Preston and Carlisle[/quote]

Well look at it this way. Red cow is an incredibly busy crossing. If you lower the barriers for a train which arrives and has an issue, you're now sat with the barriers down until someone rings in and agrees for you to put back. Then there's a further 2 mins for the approach locking to release. On top of that you might be delaying another train that could leave in that gap.

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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 16:15 #118893
Underwood
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When I had a visit to Three Bridges many years ago, if a Southern train was dividing or joining, routes were not set until they had a TRTS, thus if a problem arises with the coupling or uncoupling the route didn't need to be pulled.

Any joining/dividing trains on SimSig I wait for TRTS before setting a route.

Don't know if that's a practice used nowadays but I'd imagine it is?

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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 16:17 #118895
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At a slight tangent to this is the probability of delays to trains whilst stopped.

AFAICT Simsig makes the decision of whether to delay a train the moment it arrives at a location. I thus feel more safe in route setting before TRTS is given knowing that it is unlikely that the route will have to be put back due to a train issue after it has arrived.

This obviously makes no real difference for most through station stops as they are relatively short (<1min, YMMV). However, with longer dwell times (>5mins) eg. mail/parcels traffic or turnarounds at termini, I get the impression some issues may only surface towards the end of the stop.

Thus the signaller is affected as they may have to keep that decision 'plate' spinning till TRTS or a phone call is received, rather than setting and forgetting the route.

Last edited: 10/06/2019 at 19:42 by Soton_Speed
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 17:29 #118901
Splodge
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At Piccadilly, the signallers will not set a route until TRTS is given for platforms 1-12, for 13 they will often set a route if possible and 14 is usually left in auto down to Oxford Road. Under normal circumstances, crew changes don't officially happen on 13/14 so as long as a train doesn't develop a fault they know it should be continuing.

Oxford Road will usually set through routes with the exception of Platform 5 departures, usually this is to ensure the crew are on board so they don't tie up the junction.

Crewe generally will await TRTS, but at quieter times might not especially from P1 as if they know nothing is coming in from Manchester there won't be any conflicts. The same applies at Manchester Airport, especially now it has a fourth platform which provides a little extra flexibility.

Other stations I sign where TRTS is provided - Wilmslow, Stoke, Stockport, Bolton - will set routes in advance where possible.

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 10/06/2019 at 22:33 #118908
clive
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headshot119 in post 118882 said:
In real life, it depends on the location as to whether it's acceptable / a good idea.
On WembleySub the Sectional Appendix forbids certain signals being cleared before TRTS is given. This is simulated with a penalty for doing it.

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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 11/06/2019 at 04:15 #118912
Ron_J
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I remember years ago when I was working a box getting the TRTS and clearing the road only for the train to sit and sit and sit... I phoned the station staff to find out what was happening and was told by the Chargeman that the train didn’t have a driver because he was travelling pass on another train that was now waiting to get into that platform. I asked why did you press the TRTS then and the answer which has stuck with me ever since was “Well the train is ready to start it’s just the driver isn’t here yet”.
Last edited: 11/06/2019 at 04:25 by Ron_J
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 11/06/2019 at 10:20 #118914
bugsy
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clive in post 118908 said:
headshot119 in post 118882 said:
In real life, it depends on the location as to whether it's acceptable / a good idea.
On WembleySub the Sectional Appendix forbids certain signals being cleared before TRTS is given. This is simulated with a penalty for doing it.
This partly answers my other question which was whether a simulation gives a penalty for setting a route before TRTS is given.

Do any other sims do this?

My goodness, that was difficult, but I managed it.
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 11/06/2019 at 12:55 #118915
Late Turn
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Derby (certainly prior to last year’s resignalling) had a formal policy to encourage routes out of the station to be set prior to the arrival of through trains where possible, even those with crew changes, which I understand was to let drivers approach the normal stopping point a little more confidently.
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 11/06/2019 at 16:45 #118920
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Late Turn in post 118915 said:
Derby (certainly prior to last year’s resignalling) had a formal policy to encourage routes out of the station to be set prior to the arrival of through trains where possible, even those with crew changes, which I understand was to let drivers approach the normal stopping point a little more confidently.
That makes sense - no overlaps, so the train would have a route instead.

When we were setting up ARS for Stoke on Trent (in real life) the signallers wanted ARS to give the driver greens into the station. SoT does have overlaps but perhaps for similar reasons - bringing a train in faster.

SimSig Boss
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 11/06/2019 at 18:29 #118927
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Late Turn in post 118915 said:
Derby (certainly prior to last year’s resignalling) had a formal policy to encourage routes out of the station to be set prior to the arrival of through trains where possible, even those with crew changes, which I understand was to let drivers approach the normal stopping point a little more confidently.
That must have been a more recent change then, because during my time on the back desk in Derby box (early 90's - early 2000's) the signalmen virtually never pulled off for passenger, ECS or mail trains until the TRTS was pressed, for many of the reasons stated in earlier posts in this thread.

Phil.

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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 12/06/2019 at 00:38 #118935
Late Turn
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Phil-jmw in post 118927 said:
Late Turn in post 118915 said:
Derby (certainly prior to last year’s resignalling) had a formal policy to encourage routes out of the station to be set prior to the arrival of through trains where possible, even those with crew changes, which I understand was to let drivers approach the normal stopping point a little more confidently.
That must have been a more recent change then, because during my time on the back desk in Derby box (early 90's - early 2000's) the signalmen virtually never pulled off for passenger, ECS or mail trains until the TRTS was pressed, for many of the reasons stated in earlier posts in this thread.

Phil.

It was indeed - I don’t know when exactly, but certainly in the last decade or so. I suspect that it followed the introduction of ever more restrictive defensive driving policies which would put time into longer trains crawling right up towards what’d otherwise be a red.

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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 12/06/2019 at 09:16 #118936
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GeoffM in post 118920 said:
Late Turn in post 118915 said:
Derby (certainly prior to last year’s resignalling) had a formal policy to encourage routes out of the station to be set prior to the arrival of through trains where possible, even those with crew changes, which I understand was to let drivers approach the normal stopping point a little more confidently.
That makes sense - no overlaps, so the train would have a route instead.

When we were setting up ARS for Stoke on Trent (in real life) the signallers wanted ARS to give the driver greens into the station. SoT does have overlaps but perhaps for similar reasons - bringing a train in faster.
I would also have thought that there's a desire not to bring a train down to a red signal unnecessarily (i.e. it's only a couple of minutes stop, and the next booked train on the line anyway), increasing the chance of a SPAD. I've been a bit surprised by the responses in this thread - it turns out trains get brought up to red at through stations (Carlisle, Preston, Crewe) a lot more often than I'd have imagined.

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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 13/06/2019 at 23:36 #118962
Hap
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bugsy in post 118881 said:
Every time that I give a 'proceed' aspect from a platform that has a TRTS facility, but before TRTS is activated, I get a niggling feeling that I shouldn't.

In normal circumstances is this acceptable or should I wait for the TRTS signal?
And if it isn't acceptable, I assume that penalty points are given.
Dundee and Aberdeen are a hit and a miss. Sometimes we get TRTS, sometimes we don't. sometimes we get dispatched and sometimes we don't. Even though we should for Aberdeen, but they are a law into themselves.

Newcraighall had/has a TRTS button, sometimes we had to use it if the signal wasn't OFF 3 mins before dep time.

EDB, GLC, QST & INV are all musts unless it's a passing freight (EDB only). (And even at that, at EDB, I don't know if they call out if they are stopped on platform for whatever reason)

Some drivers, upon communication with station DM, can call themselves out of platforms if ECS to depot. I don't see this happen with any other operator other that ASR.

HAP
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 14/06/2019 at 09:36 #118964
Splodge
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Hap in post 118962 said:
(And even at that, at EDB, I don't know if they call out if they are stopped on platform for whatever reason)
Probably not, at Piccadilly 13 and 14 we only need dispatching if doors are released - so an ECS move from Oxford Road to Longsight held at a platform signal doesn't need dispatching; an ECS which arrived in passenger service from Oxford Road but changed to an ECS headcode at Piccadilly (releasing doors to allow pax off) will do. Opening a local door for a driver change on ECS doesn't count as releasing doors either.

Hap in post 118962 said:
Some drivers, upon communication with station DM, can call themselves out of platforms if ECS to depot. I don't see this happen with any other operator other that ASR.
Apparently we used to be able to do that in conjunction with Piccadilly signal box for moves to Longsight (before I started) but it was causing issues for the shunter at Longsight so we had to stop doing it - so ECS from the main trainshed must be dispatched as well - so generally things go in booked order but not necessarily to booked time.

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 02/08/2019 at 23:07 #119812
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As others have said, it depends on location and traffic situation at the time.

When working Temple Meads, I will always wait for the TRTS. However, if I had an on time departure, slow service to Western-Super-Mare with the TRTS flashing, but also a late fast service to Taunton approaching Temple Meads, I will set the route straight through the station for the fast. There is a risk I never get the TRTS for the fast service due to sick passenger, stuck door etc, but its best to give the clear route to help it along.

TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford
Last edited: 02/08/2019 at 23:09 by MrBitsy
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TRTS and the Proceed aspect 02/08/2019 at 23:16 #119813
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Also depends if ARS is being used which will never clear a signal until TRTS is received. I use Traffic Management software (being tested at TVSC) with ARS always on, but if a late through service is late, I'll clear the signal manually before the train arrives - mitigates SPAD risk and will give the driver more confidence into the platform.
TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford
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