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Selecting running days options 25/06/2019 at 20:01 #119112
Underwood
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Would it be possible to implement a date selector in the timetable editor, maybe linked with options for the user to choose a day or the day selected at random?

More an option for freight, for passenger it would be 'Run All Days' or something, but for 4 different timing paths for one freight train, because on Monday it enters at 01.10, Tuesday it enters at 01.26, Wednesday enters at 01.45 and Thursday runs as required entering at 01.30.

Rather than trying to tie those all up with rules, it might make it easier for the user to select in the timetable editor the day of the week, or a checkbox system to select a day like Monday and Thursday.

Then if the player at the start of the sim chooses Monday, everything related to Monday will run. Or could just me permanently random.

I am trying to add freight trains to one of my 2012 TT's, but I'm frazzled by the amount of different pathing times for different dates, alternative destinations and a vast majority all running as required, I can't begin to think how to work it all out by rules!

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Selecting running days options 25/06/2019 at 20:13 #119113
Meld
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The 2015/2019 TTs select the day of operation by using a decision

If you open Newport 2015 and look at 6M02 for an example you'll see that one decision decides which one of the 8 options runs, before the decisions module was added to the core code this would have required 25 mutually exclusive rules for just the one path.

Pascals excellent Carlisle TT uses decisions for Day of the Week, I know Postal did a lot of work on these and would be able to offer some advice.

HTH

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Selecting running days options 25/06/2019 at 20:39 #119115
postal
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Underwood in post 119112 said:
Would it be possible to implement a date selector in the timetable editor, maybe linked with options for the user to choose a day or the day selected at random?

More an option for freight, for passenger it would be 'Run All Days' or something, but for 4 different timing paths for one freight train, because on Monday it enters at 01.10, Tuesday it enters at 01.26, Wednesday enters at 01.45 and Thursday runs as required entering at 01.30.

Rather than trying to tie those all up with rules, it might make it easier for the user to select in the timetable editor the day of the week, or a checkbox system to select a day like Monday and Thursday.

Then if the player at the start of the sim chooses Monday, everything related to Monday will run. Or could just me permanently random.

I am trying to add freight trains to one of my 2012 TT's, but I'm frazzled by the amount of different pathing times for different dates, alternative destinations and a vast majority all running as required, I can't begin to think how to work it all out by rules!
James

Following on from what Meld has written, the heritage Carlisle TT has all the trains from the full Monday to Friday week written into the TT. Where trains do not run every day (or there are different paths on different days) each of the TT variants for the train has a decision and choice to decide whether it runs or not. All of that is driven by a single Day of the Week decision (abbreviated to DotW as it is easier to type into the box on the TT). This DotW decision has 5 choices (MON, TUE, WED, THU, FRI although I could have saved myself some typing and only used the first two letters or even just numbers 1 to 5 for the days). For a train that enters every day the decision box on the front tab of the train TT is left blank For trains which do not run every day, DotW is entered into the decision box then the choices are entered to define when the train runs. For a single day run, just the relevant day from the choices list is entered. For trains that run on more than one day you can use the "any" and "not" operators so for example a MWFO train would have the decision DotW then either "any MON|WED|FRI" or "not TUE|THU" (without the quotation marks) put into the choice box. The pipe symbol | is produced by pressing the shift and backslash keys on my keyboard.

If you have a weight of 1 against each of the choices in the decision there will be a random selection of the day to run when the first of the dated trains enters (so if any of the seed trains do not run every day the decision is called as soon as the sim opens). Some people prefer the certainty of knowing which day they are going to run. The Carlisle TT has the master random selection TT available to download and also 5 separate daily TTs. These are actually the full 5-day TT but with the decision locked to produce the day you want. You achieve this by setting the weighting of the day you want to 1, and making the weight of all the other day choices 0. Save the TT against the relevant day then go back to your master and repeat until you have all the 5 days covered.

Let me know if there are any questions - or post here so that others can see the answers as well.

"In the fight between you and the world, back the world." - Frank Zappa (21/12/1940 – 4/12/1993) , American multi-instrumentalist musician, composer, and bandleader.
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Selecting running days options 25/06/2019 at 20:44 #119117
jc92
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easiest thing is to use decisions as meld says.

decision - DOTW - with MON TUE WED THU FRI as outcomes.

if a train runs every day then no decision is required.
if a train runs Monday only (for instance) then decision outcome is MON
if a train runs Tuesday Wednesday only then decision is [any] MON|TUE
if a train runs Monday excepted then [not] MON

say you have train 1Z00 that runs Mondays only but can run two separate paths. then create both variants with decision [not] MON and then a rule to make them mutually exclusive.

to be honest it sounds more complex and intensive than it ends up being in practice.

as a suggestion for core code, given that decisions can be linked to scenarios in the start up menu, is it possible for developers to add the days as scenarios which would then drive the decisions? only downside is this would be sim specific currently.

Last edited: 25/06/2019 at 20:44 by jc92
Reason: None given

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Selecting running days options 25/06/2019 at 21:43 #119118
Jan
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Having some standard naming convention for DotW decisions so they could optionally be pre-selected from the loader menu (if the timetable supports it) would be a nice idea, but I think it should be separately from scenarios, as choosing a day for the timetable shouldn't preclude you from combining it with e.g. one of the disruption scenarios (where available).
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Selecting running days options 26/06/2019 at 16:06 #119124
Underwood
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Ok you have completely lost me now 😂

Seriously though I did open up the Carlisle sim and seen the list of TTs, with MON, TUE etc, I looked at the trains list and seen the decisions but I haven't a clue what any of it means, like one had a decision list with 50 and 60, does it mean anything specific?

I am very sorry John it looked like you spent a lot of time typing that in detail but I cant process it (it's not a dig at you by the way, its me), I've never used this type of decision stuff ever, and have 0 ideas on how it works.

If you don't mind could we go through a step by step instruction beginning with how to set up a Day of the Week TT then using a freight train I need to add that is TThO or something and adding it into the TT?

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Selecting running days options 26/06/2019 at 16:41 #119125
postal
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Firstly create your Day-of-the-Week decision.

1) When you open the TT, there is a tab marked Decisions.
2) Open the Decisions tab.
3) Click on the "New" button.
4) Give the decision a name (e.g. DotW).
5) Fill in the description if you want to remember what the decision is for.
6) Click on the "New" button beside the "Choices" block.
7) Give the choice a name (e.g MON).
8) Click OK.
9) Repeat 6 and 7 until you have created the 5 daily choices.
10) Click OK on the Decision window (the one with the name DotW in the name box at the top).

You have now created the decision which will randomly decide what day of the week will run.

For your TTHO train:

1) Open the train TT.
2) Go to the Train Details tab.
3) In the Decisions box on the top right enter DotW
4) In the Choice box enter either not MON|WED|FRI or any TUE|THU
5) Click OK

You now have things set up so there is a 2 in 5 chance that the train will enter. When the train is due, the core code reads the TT and finds that the entry is governed by a decision. It consults the Decision and makes a Choice if the Decision has not previously been called. That Choice is then locked into the sim and will apply to any other TT where the DotW Decision has been entered into the box on the Train Details Tab of a TT. If the Choice picked is TUE or THU the train will enter. If MON, WED or FRI is picked the train will not enter.

After you have done all of that the other stuff in my previous post about fixing a day of the week etc. may start to make more sense.

Decisions as a process looks very complicated at the start but they are one of the easiest timetabling tools to use; they are far less complex and much more flexible than trying to set things up using "must not run" and "are mutually exclusive" rules. You can also apply them to actions in a train TT. For example, suppose a train drops a light engine which goes off to the depot on Monday but which runs round and works the train back on the other days, in the TT for the train you have three activities, one to drop the Monday light engine, and two to drop and re-join the run-round loco. In that case the Add Activity window in the Train TT for the Monday light-engine would be say DEF 0A00 with a Decision DotW and a Choice MON. The other two activities for the run round loco would have Decision DotW and Choice not MON.

Come back again if you are still having problems.

"In the fight between you and the world, back the world." - Frank Zappa (21/12/1940 – 4/12/1993) , American multi-instrumentalist musician, composer, and bandleader.
Last edited: 26/06/2019 at 16:45 by postal
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Selecting running days options 29/06/2019 at 17:18 #119146
Steamer
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Jan in post 119118 said:
Having some standard naming convention for DotW decisions so they could optionally be pre-selected from the loader menu (if the timetable supports it) would be a nice idea, but I think it should be separately from scenarios, as choosing a day for the timetable shouldn't preclude you from combining it with e.g. one of the disruption scenarios (where available).
I've raised this as a feature request (#25672)

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Selecting running days options 30/06/2019 at 10:15 #119165
TimTamToe
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postal in post 119125 said:
Firstly create your Day-of-the-Week decision.

1) When you open the TT, there is a tab marked Decisions.
2) Open the Decisions tab.
3) Click on the "New" button.
4) Give the decision a name (e.g. DotW).
5) Fill in the description if you want to remember what the decision is for.
6) Click on the "New" button beside the "Choices" block.
7) Give the choice a name (e.g MON).
8) Click OK.
9) Repeat 6 and 7 until you have created the 5 daily choices.
10) Click OK on the Decision window (the one with the name DotW in the name box at the top).

You have now created the decision which will randomly decide what day of the week will run.

For your TTHO train:

1) Open the train TT.
2) Go to the Train Details tab.
3) In the Decisions box on the top right enter DotW
4) In the Choice box enter either not MON|WED|FRI or any TUE|THU
5) Click OK

You now have things set up so there is a 2 in 5 chance that the train will enter. When the train is due, the core code reads the TT and finds that the entry is governed by a decision. It consults the Decision and makes a Choice if the Decision has not previously been called. That Choice is then locked into the sim and will apply to any other TT where the DotW Decision has been entered into the box on the Train Details Tab of a TT. If the Choice picked is TUE or THU the train will enter. If MON, WED or FRI is picked the train will not enter.

After you have done all of that the other stuff in my previous post about fixing a day of the week etc. may start to make more sense.

Decisions as a process looks very complicated at the start but they are one of the easiest timetabling tools to use; they are far less complex and much more flexible than trying to set things up using "must not run" and "are mutually exclusive" rules. You can also apply them to actions in a train TT. For example, suppose a train drops a light engine which goes off to the depot on Monday but which runs round and works the train back on the other days, in the TT for the train you have three activities, one to drop the Monday light engine, and two to drop and re-join the run-round loco. In that case the Add Activity window in the Train TT for the Monday light-engine would be say DEF 0A00 with a Decision DotW and a Choice MON. The other two activities for the run round loco would have Decision DotW and Choice not MON.

Come back again if you are still having problems.
Thanks for this John, I know I wasn't the OP but that's really useful
Gareth

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Selecting running days options 10/08/2019 at 22:56 #120009
Underwood
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Thank you very much for all your help!

Sorry I've not had time to try it out until recently, and I've got it sussed, as you say it sounds complicated but once it's done a couple of times it's very easy, thank you very much!

James.

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Selecting running days options 12/08/2019 at 01:53 #120020
VInce
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Just for the record, all of mine use it as well..

Peterborough 1977, Exeter 1981 and Huddersfield 2018...

Vince

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