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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts

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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 14/10/2019 at 19:54 #121025
9pN1SEAp
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Whilst it's nice to be informed that a signal failure has occurred in the "xxx area", it would be nice if the signal was identified accurately, especially when you're manning a large panel or set of panels in rush hour!

Surely the signalling system would be able to provide this level of detail (more so in IECC/CAD panels than NX maybe)?

Thanks
Jamie

Jamie S (JAMS)
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 14/10/2019 at 20:38 #121030
GeoffM
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In IECCs you just get the interlocking name as a signaller, hence why SimSig does the same. The technician has more detail.
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Last edited: 14/10/2019 at 20:48 by GeoffM
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 14/10/2019 at 21:17 #121033
9pN1SEAp
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Thanks Geoff,

Perhaps the technician could drop a note into the incident log when they wake!

Jamie S (JAMS)
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 14/10/2019 at 21:40 #121035
ajax103
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9pN1SEAp in post 121025 said:
Whilst it's nice to be informed that a signal failure has occurred in the "xxx area", it would be nice if the signal was identified accurately, especially when you're manning a large panel or set of panels in rush hour!

Surely the signalling system would be able to provide this level of detail (more so in IECC/CAD panels than NX maybe)?

Thanks
Jamie
The Welsh sims eg Cardiff, Port Talbot and Newport etc are how I think sims ought to cover issues like this as you have the choice of breaking the sim into panels or breaking them down even more into smaller areas that are more specific.

Eg you click on the INT button and it gives you the interlocking areas for the simulation in question, I rather this was extended to cover more simulations then ID specific signals then again I might be in minority.

Geoff and Developers over to you....

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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 15/10/2019 at 00:38 #121043
headshot119
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ajax103 in post 121035 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 121025 said:
Whilst it's nice to be informed that a signal failure has occurred in the "xxx area", it would be nice if the signal was identified accurately, especially when you're manning a large panel or set of panels in rush hour!

Surely the signalling system would be able to provide this level of detail (more so in IECC/CAD panels than NX maybe)?

Thanks
Jamie
The Welsh sims eg Cardiff, Port Talbot and Newport etc are how I think sims ought to cover issues like this as you have the choice of breaking the sim into panels or breaking them down even more into smaller areas that are more specific.

Eg you click on the INT button and it gives you the interlocking areas for the simulation in question, I rather this was extended to cover more simulations then ID specific signals then again I might be in minority.

Geoff and Developers over to you....
All simulations are already broken down into interlocking areas, they may just not be marked with the exact boundaries, but will give you a good idea of where to look.

Eg Signal Lamp Failure Detected In the Flimby interlocking area. You'd want to be looking roughly around Flimby station.

A lot of mechanical boxes have just one interlocking which covers the whole box area.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 15/10/2019 at 15:53 #121054
ajax103
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Granted but if we use West Anglia and Port Talbot as a example, I find it much quicker to fault find on the latter as it clearly has the interlocking areas highlighted in red.

That might just be me but I find how it’s done in the Welsh sims to be very user friendly!

And remember I’m neither local to either sim too which needs to be brought into mind.

Last edited: 15/10/2019 at 15:55 by ajax103
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 15/10/2019 at 16:02 #121055
jc92
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I think it's fine as it is. Eventually a driver will ring in because he's sat at a red/unlit signal.

It's better than any fault indication I've had in a manual box - "hmm this lever won't release... Oh its because of that track circuit failure that's been there for the last 40 minutes"

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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 15/10/2019 at 16:43 #121057
GeoffM
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ajax103 in post 121054 said:
Granted but if we use West Anglia and Port Talbot as a example, I find it much quicker to fault find on the latter as it clearly has the interlocking areas highlighted in red.

That might just be me but I find how it’s done in the Welsh sims to be very user friendly!

And remember I’m neither local to either sim too which needs to be brought into mind.
We're not trying to make it easy! Again, on IECCs, the interlocking boundaries are not shown*. MCS does. Not sure about Westcad but that might depend on the day of the week given their adherence (or lack thereof) to standards.

Most interlockings are named after a major local feature anyway, such as a station name.

[Edit] * - except a comms failure to an interlocking (which could mean a dead interlocking)

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Last edited: 15/10/2019 at 18:22 by GeoffM
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 15/10/2019 at 22:35 #121067
KymriskaDraken
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On many panels the first the Signalman knew about an automatic signal failure was when the Driver called in to ask why he'd ben stopped. Controlled signals have an indication on the panel, but that only shows Red (Signal On) or Green (Signal Off). Even then the Signalman might not spot that it's failed as I think the route still sets.

The other way the Signalman might know about a problem is when the Sick & Tired emerge from their lair and declare that a Signal in such-and-such an area is on its second filament so they want to watch a couple of trains go through to identify the signal.

Kev

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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 15/10/2019 at 23:53 #121070
ajax103
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GeoffM in post 121057 said:
ajax103 in post 121054 said:
Granted but if we use West Anglia and Port Talbot as a example, I find it much quicker to fault find on the latter as it clearly has the interlocking areas highlighted in red.

That might just be me but I find how it’s done in the Welsh sims to be very user friendly!

And remember I’m neither local to either sim too which needs to be brought into mind.
We're not trying to make it easy! Again, on IECCs, the interlocking boundaries are not shown*. MCS does. Not sure about Westcad but that might depend on the day of the week given their adherence (or lack thereof) to standards.

Most interlockings are named after a major local feature anyway, such as a station name.

[Edit] * - except a comms failure to an interlocking (which could mean a dead interlocking)
True, just personal preference here - it's just something that the Welsh sims have that I really like

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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 16/10/2019 at 16:14 #121085
Chromatix
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This reminds me of a point I think I brought up before. Signal lamp failures being visible to drivers *should* be uncommon, because the lamps have dual filaments and are routinely replaced when the primary one fails. Granted, SimSig deliberately exaggerates failure rates (even at only one tick up from "none"to make things "interesting" - so it could be said that the reason it takes so long for an S&T tech to repair failures is because they're running around like headless chickens trying to keep up with precautionary lamp replacements!

Also, I've seen a (German-style in Finland) signal automatically fall back in displayed aspect when it couldn't prove the desired one - in that particular case, from "clear expect slow" to "clear expect stop". That's a feature which would make handling lamp failures in SimSig much easier, as currently a failure of Y or G lamps on an automatic signal without an emergency replacement facility causes frequent ACOAs that are hard to avoid.

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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 16/10/2019 at 21:25 #121097
GeoffM
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Chromatix in post 121085 said:
This reminds me of a point I think I brought up before. Signal lamp failures being visible to drivers *should* be uncommon, because the lamps have dual filaments and are routinely replaced when the primary one fails. Granted, SimSig deliberately exaggerates failure rates (even at only one tick up from "none"to make things "interesting" - so it could be said that the reason it takes so long for an S&T tech to repair failures is because they're running around like headless chickens trying to keep up with precautionary lamp replacements!
It's not uncommon for the first filament failure to take out the second at the same time.

Chromatix in post 121085 said:
Also, I've seen a (German-style in Finland) signal automatically fall back in displayed aspect when it couldn't prove the desired one - in that particular case, from "clear expect slow" to "clear expect stop". That's a feature which would make handling lamp failures in SimSig much easier, as currently a failure of Y or G lamps on an automatic signal without an emergency replacement facility causes frequent ACOAs that are hard to avoid.
I don't believe that happens anywhere in the UK with three exceptions: a double yellow falling back to a single yellow, when the top yellow fails; flashing yellows where the flasher unit fails; and Ansaldo's use of either lamp for red/green/yellow (only Manchester South, and that had.... issues... in commissioning).

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Last edited: 16/10/2019 at 21:27 by GeoffM
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 17/10/2019 at 17:10 #121127
Steamer
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GeoffM in post 121097 said:

Chromatix in post 121085 said:
Also, I've seen a (German-style in Finland) signal automatically fall back in displayed aspect when it couldn't prove the desired one - in that particular case, from "clear expect slow" to "clear expect stop". That's a feature which would make handling lamp failures in SimSig much easier, as currently a failure of Y or G lamps on an automatic signal without an emergency replacement facility causes frequent ACOAs that are hard to avoid.
I don't believe that happens anywhere in the UK with three exceptions: a double yellow falling back to a single yellow, when the top yellow fails; flashing yellows where the flasher unit fails; and Ansaldo's use of either lamp for red/green/yellow (only Manchester South, and that had.... issues... in commissioning).
Didn't some of the earlier PSB schemes allow a Yellow onto an unlit signal?

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Last edited: 17/10/2019 at 17:11 by Steamer
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 17/10/2019 at 17:16 #121128
GeoffM
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Steamer in post 121127 said:
GeoffM in post 121097 said:

Chromatix in post 121085 said:
Also, I've seen a (German-style in Finland) signal automatically fall back in displayed aspect when it couldn't prove the desired one - in that particular case, from "clear expect slow" to "clear expect stop". That's a feature which would make handling lamp failures in SimSig much easier, as currently a failure of Y or G lamps on an automatic signal without an emergency replacement facility causes frequent ACOAs that are hard to avoid.
I don't believe that happens anywhere in the UK with three exceptions: a double yellow falling back to a single yellow, when the top yellow fails; flashing yellows where the flasher unit fails; and Ansaldo's use of either lamp for red/green/yellow (only Manchester South, and that had.... issues... in commissioning).
Didn't some of the earlier PSB schemes allow a Yellow onto an unlit signal?
Yes, in some interlockings - broadly speaking, only if the unlit signal is trying to display a proceed aspect.

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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 18/10/2019 at 08:56 #121150
kbarber
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GeoffM in post 121128 said:
Steamer in post 121127 said:
GeoffM in post 121097 said:

Chromatix in post 121085 said:
Also, I've seen a (German-style in Finland) signal automatically fall back in displayed aspect when it couldn't prove the desired one - in that particular case, from "clear expect slow" to "clear expect stop". That's a feature which would make handling lamp failures in SimSig much easier, as currently a failure of Y or G lamps on an automatic signal without an emergency replacement facility causes frequent ACOAs that are hard to avoid.
I don't believe that happens anywhere in the UK with three exceptions: a double yellow falling back to a single yellow, when the top yellow fails; flashing yellows where the flasher unit fails; and Ansaldo's use of either lamp for red/green/yellow (only Manchester South, and that had.... issues... in commissioning).
Didn't some of the earlier PSB schemes allow a Yellow onto an unlit signal?
Yes, in some interlockings - broadly speaking, only if the unlit signal is trying to display a proceed aspect.
AKA 'Lamp or Controls' I believe. I heard it said once that, around the time of implementation (mid-1960s for Euston), it would be theoretically possible to get a yellow out of the platform at Euston that would read (ie confirm routes set and signals with failed lamps but able to show a proceed aspect) all the way into the platform at Manchester Piccadilly!

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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 18/10/2019 at 09:52 #121151
KymriskaDraken
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kbarber in post 121150 said:
GeoffM in post 121128 said:
Steamer in post 121127 said:
GeoffM in post 121097 said:

Chromatix in post 121085 said:
Also, I've seen a (German-style in Finland) signal automatically fall back in displayed aspect when it couldn't prove the desired one - in that particular case, from "clear expect slow" to "clear expect stop". That's a feature which would make handling lamp failures in SimSig much easier, as currently a failure of Y or G lamps on an automatic signal without an emergency replacement facility causes frequent ACOAs that are hard to avoid.
I don't believe that happens anywhere in the UK with three exceptions: a double yellow falling back to a single yellow, when the top yellow fails; flashing yellows where the flasher unit fails; and Ansaldo's use of either lamp for red/green/yellow (only Manchester South, and that had.... issues... in commissioning).
Didn't some of the earlier PSB schemes allow a Yellow onto an unlit signal?
Yes, in some interlockings - broadly speaking, only if the unlit signal is trying to display a proceed aspect.
AKA 'Lamp or Controls' I believe. I heard it said once that, around the time of implementation (mid-1960s for Euston), it would be theoretically possible to get a yellow out of the platform at Euston that would read (ie confirm routes set and signals with failed lamps but able to show a proceed aspect) all the way into the platform at Manchester Piccadilly!
Sounds very much like the Midland. They never would have allowed that on the Western :)

Kev

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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 18/10/2019 at 12:11 #121153
jc92
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That's one long bit of emergency block working
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 19/10/2019 at 12:51 #121171
Izzy
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Yes, Westcad does show interlocking areas, but you need to turn the feature on. It can be toggled to make the screen less cluttered.
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 21/10/2019 at 17:58 #121235
GeoffM
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Izzy in post 121171 said:
Yes, Westcad does show interlocking areas, but you need to turn the feature on. It can be toggled to make the screen less cluttered.
Only if the data is set up to do so. Earlier Westcads certainly didn't show interlocking areas unless failed (see above).

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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 22/10/2019 at 04:21 #121248
Giantray
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GeoffM in post 121057 said:
[quote=ajax103;post=121054] Again, on IECCs, the interlocking boundaries are not shown*. MCS does. Not sure about Westcad but that might depend on the day of the week given their adherence (or lack thereof) to standards.

[Edit] * - except a comms failure to an interlocking (which could mean a dead interlocking)
Geoff, the WestCad I use has interlocking boundaries shown, as you say they mention the limits in their name. At TBROC interlocking areas are wholely controlled by one workstation, they won't permit two workstation working seperate sections of the same interlocking anymore. The London Bridge Workstation, because of the absence of ARS was deemed to have too high a workload for one Signaller, so it was split into two workstations (3a & 3b) both workstations being identical with dual control. This was the last case of this. When they installed Cannon Street Workstation, this again was deemed to have a too high work load for one signaller because of no ARS. This was split into two identical workstations, however Cannon Street A controls the BoroMarket-Cannon Street interlocking, whilst Cannon Street B controls the London Bridge - North kent east interlocking. Whilst both workstations are identical, they can only operate equipment in their own interlocking areas whilst still being able to see each others area of control.

Professional Railwayman since 1981. Railway Historian (SER, LCDR)
Last edited: 22/10/2019 at 04:22 by Giantray
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Signal ID in "failed signal" alerts 22/10/2019 at 16:22 #121265
GeoffM
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Giantray in post 121248 said:
GeoffM in post 121057 said:
ajax103 in post 121054 said:
Again, on IECCs, the interlocking boundaries are not shown*. MCS does. Not sure about Westcad but that might depend on the day of the week given their adherence (or lack thereof) to standards.

[Edit] * - except a comms failure to an interlocking (which could mean a dead interlocking)
Geoff, the WestCad I use has interlocking boundaries shown
GeoffM in post 121235 said:
[quote=Izzy;post=121171]Yes, Westcad does show interlocking areas, but you need to turn the feature on. It can be toggled to make the screen less cluttered.
Only if the data is set up to do so. Earlier Westcads certainly didn't show interlocking areas unless failed (see above).
I think the standards changed over the years. Certainly back in the days I worked at Westinghouse they weren't shown except in a failure. Clearly they are now shown on demand!

Also, undirected comment, remember that "Westcad" is a very flexible control system. The ones you see on Network Rail are made to look similar to IECC. But Westcads also control London's Jubilee line, Oslo's T-Bane, small bits of Australian main line infrastructure - and they all look very different from each other.

SimSig Boss
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