Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph

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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 17/10/2019 at 20:53 #121136
Muzer
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I had a track circuit failure in an awkward place in the Brighton station throat. As a result, I had to manually route 1M19 out via the Down Main — that is across the crossover and immediately back. I set the points manually and told the driver to examine the line and pass the signal at danger, but I then noticed it seemed to have stayed in one place for a little while. Upon looking at the train list it shows as moving at 0mph. Indeed fast-forwarding the sim it never gets anywhere.

Attached is the save.

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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 17/10/2019 at 21:11 #121137
GeoffM
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Generally such wiggles wouldn't be allowed in real life anyway, due to the sharp curvature the two points make. Hence not programmed into the sim as a valid move.
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 17/10/2019 at 21:34 #121138
Muzer
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Ah, right, interesting! What documents would real-life signallers be looking at when deciding whether or not a route is allowed? Would signallers ever be allowed to talk trains along routes that are normally unsignalled? If so, how do they know what the allowed limits are? If not, I suppose they would just look at route tables!
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 17/10/2019 at 22:09 #121139
JamesN
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Ordinarily no, you wouldn't be talking past along routes which aren't signalled. It's permissible in some circumstances; but the signaller would be aware of the specific cases where its allowed through route tables.
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 17/10/2019 at 22:32 #121140
Muzer
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Right. What got me here was that I incorrectly recalled Brighton as being a geographic interlocking and so assumed this route would be a valid one, without actually bothering to check! I know for next time...
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 17/10/2019 at 22:49 #121142
DriverCurran
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He would consult his route card for the required signals, set points as listed, apply reminders as instructed, close the route card book, give it to another signaller or the signalling shift manager who would repeat the process then speak to the squidgy bit at the front of the train

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 17/10/2019 at 23:04 #121143
clive
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Muzer in post 121140 said:
What got me here was that I incorrectly recalled Brighton as being a geographic interlocking and so assumed this route would be a valid one,
Though a geographic interlocking means that the infrastructure for every possible route is there, the routes themselves can be enabled or disabled separately (I don't recall the exact logic involved).

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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 17/10/2019 at 23:58 #121145
GeoffM
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clive in post 121143 said:
Muzer in post 121140 said:
What got me here was that I incorrectly recalled Brighton as being a geographic interlocking and so assumed this route would be a valid one,
Though a geographic interlocking means that the infrastructure for every possible route is there, the routes themselves can be enabled or disabled separately (I don't recall the exact logic involved).
Westpac MkIVA so yes, it is geographic. It just so happens that I have some circuit diagrams... though I'll freely admit I do not fully understand them all. Geniuses that came up with them. They'd still be used today if it weren't for the advent of SSI and other CBIs.

Anyway, broadly speaking, it appears that it depends on the track layout as to how to inhibit a particular route. In what looks like the simplest case, current from an entry signal to an exit signal won't flow via specific point reverse (or normal, as the case may be), by virtue of the entry signal being activated - bridging a pair of connections on the point module with the entrance signal relay contacts. That's about the limit of my ability to understand and explain!

SimSig Boss
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 18/10/2019 at 09:54 #121152
KymriskaDraken
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GeoffM in post 121145 said:
clive in post 121143 said:
Muzer in post 121140 said:
What got me here was that I incorrectly recalled Brighton as being a geographic interlocking and so assumed this route would be a valid one,
Though a geographic interlocking means that the infrastructure for every possible route is there, the routes themselves can be enabled or disabled separately (I don't recall the exact logic involved).
Westpac MkIVA so yes, it is geographic. It just so happens that I have some circuit diagrams... though I'll freely admit I do not fully understand them all. Geniuses that came up with them. They'd still be used today if it weren't for the advent of SSI and other CBIs.

Anyway, broadly speaking, it appears that it depends on the track layout as to how to inhibit a particular route. In what looks like the simplest case, current from an entry signal to an exit signal won't flow via specific point reverse (or normal, as the case may be), by virtue of the entry signal being activated - bridging a pair of connections on the point module with the entrance signal relay contacts. That's about the limit of my ability to understand and explain! :)
It's all done by magic!

Kev

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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 19/10/2019 at 13:47 #121175
Izzy
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A "Geographical" interlocking solely refers to the style of circuitry employed. It basically works by having a prewired unit (a "set" ) for each bit of infrastructure, so you can get signal sets, point sets, ground frame sets, countermove sets, track sets, crossing sets and various other types depending on the exact type of interlocking.

We will take a generic signal set as an example. This set will have all the entrance and exit circuitry to allow this signal to be at the start of a route, or the end of a route, or both. It may also have extra circuitry for more than one route, or may need an extra set to provide this function (depending on type).

So, the idea of "geographical" is you have a set for each different piece of equipment outside - and then these standard sets can be wired together very quickly by using a standard cable. So, if you connect a signal set, then a track set, then a point set, then another signal set - you can create a simple route. The circuitry between all these sets is designed to just plug together with standard cables.

As always, it is (much) more complicated than this, but this is the general principle. Sort of plug and play relay sets (to use a modern similie, so you don't have to do all the individual desgin and testing that would be required for besspoke circuitry. The big downside is economy. Even if you have a standard signal with only one route and no controlled signal reading to it, you still have all the exit and route circuitry provided even though it will never be used - but the design and test economy is that you can resignal much faster, at the cost of providing fuctionality you will never use.

Geographical circuitry's heyday was from the early 1960's to the late 1980's - and it certainly allowed the west coast mainline to be resignalled for electrification much faster than bespoke relay interlockings could ever have allowed. But it was expensive, even by railway signalling engineering standards.

I could go on more about the technicalities, as these systems are amongst my favorite to work on but i won't. Just for those of you who are interested, i will list the major types of geographicals in the UK. There are three main types.

1) Scottish Region Geographical. The only type i have not worked on, so i can't really say much about it.

2) Westinghouse "Westpac" (5 major different types) Mk1 and Mk2 (circuitry almost identical, physical sets very different). Mk3 (almost unique to one installation). Mk3a (an improvement on Mk3). Mk4 (a complete rehash of how the fundamental interlocking works). Mk4a (an improvement on 4). This is refferred to as GCA (Geo. Circuitry "A" ) by ex-BR types.

3) The confusing one. This one has all manner of different contractors names depending on age due to company buyouts etc. But the basic principle of how the cicuitry works has the same derivation - hence ex-BR folks will know this as GCB or Geo. Circuitry "B". What you could say is Mk1 is called SGE Geographical. The Mk2 is universally known as AGS (pronounced aggs), and the the final flavour was GEC Geographical Mk1 and Mk2.(SGE - Siemens General Electric, bought out by AGS (AEI - GRS), and finally bought out again By General Electric Company).

I assume the Scottish works differently to the other 2 major types, so i will say that all three work in VERY different ways. To be honest, i could say that Westpac 4 and 4a is also VERY different to it's predecessors as well. Each one of these types requires a 3 week course to learn - and even then, you only really start learning it when you have to fix it with everyone screaming at you that the railway has stopped!! I have deliberately simplified the subject, because i don't want to spend the rest of the evening typing!

The other major type of relay interlocking in known as free-wired. This is basically where every piece of kit is designed and installed and tested individually as a bespoke system. There are (have been?) many more types of free wired systems than geographicals, but they are a subject for another day. My reason for posting this is that it seems that many of you have heard the term "geographical" interlocking, but haven't been able to fully appreciate what it means. I hope this goes some way to helping you all out. Although i don't come to this forum every month, if anyone has any questions, feel free to send a question via the forum, and i'll do my best to give you a meaningful answer - just don't expect an immediate response.

Izzy is quite obviously a "nom de guerre" - but my professional expertise lays in most relay interlockings (except WR 10,000 and SCR Geographical), as well as SSI, Westlock, Smartlock, MCS, Westcad and IECC - and a smattering of mechanical as well.

BTW - Brighton is Westpac IVa (i think), but is definately geographical. The only difference the operations folk and/or signallers see is how the route (white) lights light and extinguish - there is sometimes a different order for the white route lights (and portions thereof to light up) - this can be very useful to identify a fault, but this is an adavnced lesson for masochists ) My point here is that the type of interlocking is usually irrelevant to the operators/signallers - although i have known a few signalmen who knew their signlbox almost as well as i did!!!

EDIT: - I forgot to actually reply to the original question. The signallers would refer to Route Cards (lists of valid routes as determined at the design stage) to set points in the correct position. If the points will not go to those positions, then you are stuffed and have to wait for the S&T. Unsignalled routes do not have route cards and therefore are not normally authorised to be used - although in (very) exceptional circumsatnces this can be authorised. So....Type of interlocking is irrelevant, if there is not a designed route for the move you wish to make, then there are no route cards. No route cards = serious high level management decision. And lots of overtime for persons qualified as handsginallers :D:D

Happy SimSigging

Last edited: 19/10/2019 at 16:52 by Izzy
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 19/10/2019 at 16:02 #121179
Soton_Speed
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Muzer in post 121136 said:
I had a track circuit failure in an awkward place in the Brighton station throat. As a result, I had to manually route 1M19 out via the Down Main — that is across the crossover and immediately back. I set the points manually and told the driver to examine the line and pass the signal at danger, but I then noticed it seemed to have stayed in one place for a little while. Upon looking at the train list it shows as moving at 0mph. Indeed fast-forwarding the sim it never gets anywhere.

Attached is the save.
So others can see the situation without having to download the save, I've attached a screenshot of the problem in question.


P.S. Just noticed ARS is not enabled in the game. Is the OP a Sado-masochist?

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Last edited: 19/10/2019 at 16:33 by Soton_Speed
Reason: Last line...

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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 19/10/2019 at 17:44 #121182
Izzy
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KymriskaDraken - London Bridge is still Westpac IVa i believe. It was only a recontrol, as far as i am aware. It just doesn't get operated from the panel upstairs anymore.
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 19/10/2019 at 18:45 #121186
Hooverman
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We have quite a few wiggle routes at Brighton, some are route card only, but I can’t remember offhand if that’s ones of them.
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 21/10/2019 at 09:50 #121226
Hooverman
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After a little play (on the actual real panel) this morning, I can confirm that particular wiggly route is not valid nor do we hold route cards for that either.
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 22/10/2019 at 04:26 #121249
Giantray
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Izzy in post 121182 said:
KymriskaDraken - London Bridge is still Westpac IVa i believe. It was only a recontrol, as far as i am aware. It just doesn't get operated from the panel upstairs anymore.
Charing Cross area, Parks Bridge, Mid Kent Line and New Cross Gate to Anerley are all recontrolled areas of the old London Bridge ASC still WestPac, controlled from Three Bridges ROC.

Professional Railwayman since 1981. Railway Historian (SER, LCDR)
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 24/10/2019 at 14:57 #121294
Hooverman
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Just looking at this game save, on the East Branch. How is T702 showing a double yellow with T700 at danger, not to mention that T702 is only a three aspect signal anyway.


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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 24/10/2019 at 16:03 #121297
GeoffM
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Hooverman in post 121294 said:
Just looking at this game save, on the East Branch. How is T702 showing a double yellow with T700 at danger, not to mention that T702 is only a three aspect signal anyway.

I checked the sim data (signals correct), and the saved game, and conclude that the saved game was started on a later version of the sim data. In other words, the message "Saved data is for version xyz; game will load but there may be some incompatibilities" has proven true.

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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 24/10/2019 at 19:20 #121300
Muzer
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GeoffM in post 121297 said:
Hooverman in post 121294 said:
Just looking at this game save, on the East Branch. How is T702 showing a double yellow with T700 at danger, not to mention that T702 is only a three aspect signal anyway.

I checked the sim data (signals correct), and the saved game, and conclude that the saved game was started on a later version of the sim data. In other words, the message "Saved data is for version xyz; game will load but there may be some incompatibilities" has proven true.
Yeah, it didn't seem to affect anything else so I just ignored it...

And yeah, I was trying to play the thing at 1/2 speed with no ARS... Thought I was doing reasonably well, considering, until this happened!

Last edited: 24/10/2019 at 19:21 by Muzer
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Examine the line and pass signal at danger from Brighton p3 to T434 via the Down Main -> Moving at 0mph 24/10/2019 at 19:22 #121301
Jan
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GeoffM in post 121297 said:
In other words, the message "Saved data is for version xyz; game will load but there may be some incompatibilities" has proven true.

Although a quick test seems to indicate that that message currently might only appear for core code updates, but not sim data updates.

Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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