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| West Hampstead PSB staying? 02/03/2020 at 18:55 #123539 | |
ajax103
1104 posts |
In the April 2020 issue of Modern Railways (PP71), Andrew Haines (Network Rail CEO) is quoted as saying that ROCS are not always the best solution and that it means losing the local knowledge of those signallers not prepared to move to the ROC for that area. With regards to West Hampstead, he was quoted as saying that there is NOT a business case for transferring control of West Hampstead’s area to the ROC at Derby and that West Hampstead will instead be developed with "operational capability". What would this mean in layman terms? It was also reported locally to St Albans South Signalbox that the NX panel at West Hampstead would be replaced with screens. Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 02/03/2020 at 19:07 #123540 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
In laymans terms it means they aren't shutting West Hampstead PSB.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 02/03/2020 at 19:52 #123541 | |
bugsy
1695 posts |
Interesting statement, but I would like to know what the phrase "operation capability" means. Does anybody know?
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Last edited: 02/03/2020 at 19:53 by bugsy Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 02/03/2020 at 21:23 #123542 | |
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ajax103
1104 posts |
bugsy in post 123541 said:Interesting statement, but I would like to know what the phrase "operation capability" means. Does anybody know?That’s what I want to know too, anyone? Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 02/03/2020 at 22:54 #123544 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
I've already posted what it means. But to expand a bit further, it just means they'll develop the building to have the operational capabilities it needs to, that might be from something as trivial as repainting the canteen, to replacing the entire panel with a new one. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 02/03/2020 at 22:58 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 03/03/2020 at 08:55 #123545 | |
kbarber
1712 posts |
"With operational capability..." sounds like he's saying it won't be turned over to being an office (which fate befell Hackney Downs - admittedly a much smaller building - or a mess room (which I understand Barking became, for the use of the adjacent LT signalling staff, and which must be quite one of the most luxurious mess rooms on the system).
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| West Hampstead PSB staying? 03/03/2020 at 09:01 #123546 | |
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bugsy
1695 posts |
The guy who made the original comment would have made a good politian. They're very good at giving meaningless answers.
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 03/03/2020 at 11:40 #123547 | |
Giantray
330 posts |
Maybe he means it does not make operational sense to move the Thameslink commuter network all the way to Derby when it is best placed where the network is. Originally West Hampstead was going to Three Bridges ROC, along with Kings Cross too! But devolution and internal battles, meant the devolved regions wanted to keep the signalling under their control. Hence West Hampstead was planned to go 120+ miles away to Derby ROC and Kings Cross, 200+ miles away to York ROC. Both PSBs run more Thameslink services than any other TOCs services. Made sense to centrally locate them at Three Bridges ROC along with the rest of the Thameslink route. I personally think that Three Bridges ROC should have been based in London, then a lot of signalling knowledge would have been transferred across instead of being paid off as voluntary severance.
Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution.. Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 03/03/2020 at 12:18 #123548 | |
lazzer
604 posts |
Giantray in post 123547 said:Maybe he means it does not make operational sense to move the Thameslink commuter network all the way to Derby when it is best placed where the network is.And yet they want to move the whole of Devon and Cornwall to be under the control of TVSC ... Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 03/03/2020 at 14:22 #123550 | |
Meld
1098 posts 
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lazzer in post 123548 said:And yet they want to move the whole of Devon and Cornwall to be under the control of TVSC ...Not exactly the hive of all activity compared to Kings Cross or St Pancras, The entire area must only see about a quarter of the services covered by Three Bridges ROC in a day. Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 03/03/2020 at 14:42 #123551 | |
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Giantray
330 posts |
lazzer in post 123548 said:Giantray in post 123547 said:Yes, a bit different to West Hampstead though. West Hampstead probably sees hundreds more trains in a day than Devon and Cornwall sees.Maybe he means it does not make operational sense to move the Thameslink commuter network all the way to Derby when it is best placed where the network is.And yet they want to move the whole of Devon and Cornwall to be under the control of TVSC ... Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution.. Last edited: 03/03/2020 at 14:42 by Giantray Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 03/03/2020 at 14:55 #123553 | |
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bugsy
1695 posts |
lazzer in post 123548 said:And yet they want to move the whole of Devon and Cornwall to be under the control of TVSC ...Sorry to have to display a slight degree of ignorance, but what does "TVSC" mean? Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 03/03/2020 at 15:05 #123554 | |
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lazzer
604 posts |
bugsy in post 123553 said:lazzer in post 123548 said:Thames Valley Signalling Centre.And yet they want to move the whole of Devon and Cornwall to be under the control of TVSC ...Sorry to have to display a slight degree of ignorance, but what does "TVSC" mean? And I'm ignoring the comments about Devon and Cornwall not having the same amount of traffic as West Hampstead ... Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 03/03/2020 at 16:58 #123555 | |
Steamer
3921 posts
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Giantray in post 123547 said:Maybe he means it does not make operational sense to move the Thameslink commuter network all the way to Derby when it is best placed where the network is.Per the opening post, Haines explicitly said that there was no point transferring control to Derby, and losing the experience of the West Hampstead staff. bugsy said: The guy who made the original comment would have made a good politian. They're very good at giving meaningless answers.I must disagree there- from everything I've heard, Andrew Haines is a highly experienced railway operator, and he's talking a lot of sense. That is far more than can be said for his predecessor... "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 19/08/2020 at 11:25 #130860 | |
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collexions
3 posts |
NR's ROC Strategy is dead, long live the ROC & Pebble Strategy... outlying Signalling Centres retained as sub-regional operating centres for future recontrols... West Hampstead, Exeter, Colchester, Inverness etc. retained. West Hampstead Panels (and Cricklewood Depot) recontrol to workstations but retained physically @ WH-PSB in CP6. Kings Cross South Panels are going to York ROC next year with a temporary interim workstation covering KX Station prior to the full/delayed remodelling. Devon & Cornwall resignalling going in to Exeter PSB not TVSC - first phase in late CP6 Cambridge Resignalling to go to/stay at Colchester, not Romford ROC etc. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ajax103 |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 19/08/2020 at 22:33 #130884 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
Each Region is getting to do its own thing now, there is no longer a central operating strategy. Andre Haines is an excellent time served operator and NR will really benefit from having an operations man in charge, Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 20/08/2020 at 03:49 #130887 | |
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Sam Tugwell
493 posts |
lazzer in post 123548 said:And yet they want to move the whole of Devon and Cornwall to be under the control of TVSC ...Worth noting that TVSC was never conceived as a ROC. It’s initial existence came about as a requirement to immunise the signalling at Reading and Swindon A+B against the Overhead Electrification. The building was built incredibly quickly and did not take into account the ROC strategy that was to come a few years later. There are no plans to put Devon and Cornwall into TVSC. The building is already short of space for the possible inclusion of Gloucester, Westbury and what’s left of Bristol PSB. There’s also 2 more desks to come in on the London link, splitting Heathrow and Old Oak Common on to their own workstations. Due to the way the building was created, and it’s location, there is extremely limited scope for expansion of the operations floor which means it’s realistically at capacity with what’s already planned. "Signalman Exeter" Last edited: 20/08/2020 at 04:19 by Sam Tugwell Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 20/08/2020 at 08:45 #130889 | |
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Jan
889 posts |
In Germany DB executed a similar strategy shift - the original idea was to put everything (or at least all the main lines, which is still more than enough) into the seven Betriebszentralen (Operations Centres), but two or three years ago they publicly changed their course and announced that henceforward, the replacement for all currently remaining local signal boxes [1] would be approximately 100 smaller scale (supposedly 6 - 20 work stations each) control centres instead. [1] Also worth noting that as far as I've been able to tell [2], large scale, relay interlocking-based signalling panels controlling large areas of track were somewhat more uncommon in Germany – there were only a handful of installations on the scale of e.g. Carlisle, Motherwell or Doncaster. That kind of centralisation only become more common with the advent of computer-based interlockings and VDU-based control centres. [2] Somewhat curiously enough, due to Simsig I'm now more familiar with British than with German signalling practices in some regards. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Last edited: 20/08/2020 at 13:49 by Jan Reason: grammar Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 20/08/2020 at 10:08 #130890 | |
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Albert
1313 posts |
[1] depends on what you call large scale. Many stations in Germany are controlled by NX-style panels controlling just the station itself as a direct replacement of mechanical signalboxes. It appears to me, that there is often some trouble with coordination between boxes when there is a failure and trains get diverted along a route that spans multiple signalboxes. I have been diverted via Darmstadt in an ICE between Mannheim and Frankfurt Flughafen, which had to stop at almost every junction on the way causing nearly an hour of delay. It appears all junctions on this 50 mile long route still have their own box, amounting to at least 5 boxes getting diverted traffic routed through them.
AJP in games Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 20/08/2020 at 19:16 #130902 | |
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Jan
889 posts |
Having had a look through the BPSR and roughly estimating the route length being controlled, there seem to be at least a dozen panels in the UK controlling at least fifty to sixty route miles, or in some cases even considerably more. For Germany my data sources aren't quite as comprehensive, but having also asked around a little, my best estimate is that there are (respectively have been) at best around half as much panels of that size class, despite just former West Germany having had more main lines alone than the total length of the UK network (at least after Beeching). While remote control of relay interlockings was by no means unknown, for some reason or other the typical pattern was that even after resignalling of former mechanical boxes, at most a few stations each would end up being controlled from one signal box – either a major junction/traffic centre and possibly a few of the immediate neighbours, or a few stations situated in between two major railway junctions. And, as you've noted, in quite a few cases not even that much… Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Last edited: 20/08/2020 at 22:19 by Jan Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 20/08/2020 at 21:54 #130904 | |
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Albert
1313 posts |
My source for Germany was mostly stellwerke.de, which does not list route length but can be used to estimate the proximity of the next box. (Note that this is totally different in the Netherlands. All signalling is computerised there, with similar systems on every one of the ~13 signalboxes in the country. No huge boxes controlling 100s of kilometres, just moderate ones controlling perhaps 50km in any direction.) AJP in games Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 20/08/2020 at 22:23 #130905 | |
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broodje
180 posts |
Albert in post 130904 said:My source for Germany was mostly stellwerke.de, which does not list route length but can be used to estimate the proximity of the next box.Is there anywhere in the Netherlands where you can actually go 100's of kilometres? The service and way of control more ore less resembles a suburban pattern with only a few long distance fast trains that deserve the name. I guess a bit like the southern or so, including Thameslink. Last edited: 20/08/2020 at 22:23 by broodje Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| West Hampstead PSB staying? 20/08/2020 at 23:50 #130908 | |
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Albert
1313 posts |
I think number of workstations is a fairer comparison as the networks are so different. I did find some ~10-year-old maps of the signalling areas and it appears Utrecht had 6 workstations at the time and Amsterdam 7. None of that comes even close to the scale of York ROC. Alkmaar-Amsterdam-Utrecht-Eindhoven is a fairly major axis of 161km in length which could've been entirely in one box in the 'York ROC' philosophy, but it isn't. Usually the Dutch are pretty much in favour of centralising services as it is efficient, so I think this shows that it was being taken rather too far in some UK regions. (The longest distance between two stops on a single train service is probably Zwolle-Assen (75km). I think the longest train route inside the country is Schagen-Maastricht at 282km but hardly anyone travels that full length. There are a couple more 200km services; I think Groningen-Den Haag at nearly 270km is the most likely one to be travelled in full length.) AJP in games Log in to reply |