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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 30/03/2020 at 00:10 #125151
UKTrainMan
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All trains on the Derby Line workstation have been losing most of their timing points on that workstation.

First noticed with 1K01 from North Staffs Jn (Derby), the train will enter and by the time it gets to Egginton Junction S.B. running on the Down Stoke it loses most of it's timing points up to but excluding Longton. This is regardless of train type (e.g.: passenger stopper or anything else).

In the other direction on the Up Stoke, train will lose their timing points after Longton station. 1K00 departed Longton and just as it passes the assumed platform starter and the headcode steps forward, it loses all timing points up to but excluding Derby North Staffs Jn. This is also regardless of train type.

Neither of these prevent the trains from continuing; just means if they are a passenger train they will not stop at Tutbury, Uttoxeter, or Blythe Bridge stations in either direction. This will probably also mean if any trains are booked to loop at Caverswall Goods Loops in either direction or Hockley Down Goods Loop, and particularly loop at either location to let another train pass, they will not do so. It is possible to restore the lost timing points using F2 and setting the next location as per appropriate, and they do appear to stick afterwards. But then the problem will occur again with any subsequent trains.

Timetable: Staffordshire SX 09 01 2019
SimSig Loader Version: 4.15.1
Simulation Version: 1.1
Level Crossings: Disabled
Derby Line: Disabled
ARS: Disabled
Difficulty: None

A few relevant saves available if needed.

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 30/03/2020 at 01:02 #125153
JamesN
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UKTrainMan in post 125151 said:
All trains on the Derby Line workstation have been losing most of their timing points on that workstation.

First noticed with 1K01 from North Staffs Jn (Derby), the train will enter and by the time it gets to Egginton Junction S.B. running on the Down Stoke it loses most of it's timing points up to but excluding Longton. This is regardless of train type (e.g.: passenger stopper or anything else).

In the other direction on the Up Stoke, train will lose their timing points after Longton station. 1K00 departed Longton and just as it passes the assumed platform starter and the headcode steps forward, it loses all timing points up to but excluding Derby North Staffs Jn. This is also regardless of train type.

Neither of these prevent the trains from continuing; just means if they are a passenger train they will not stop at Tutbury, Uttoxeter, or Blythe Bridge stations in either direction. This will probably also mean if any trains are booked to loop at Caverswall Goods Loops in either direction or Hockley Down Goods Loop, and particularly loop at either location to let another train pass, they will not do so. It is possible to restore the lost timing points using F2 and setting the next location as per appropriate, and they do appear to stick afterwards. But then the problem will occur again with any subsequent trains.

Timetable: Staffordshire SX 09 01 2019
SimSig Loader Version: 4.15.1
Simulation Version: 1.1
Level Crossings: Disabled
Derby Line: Disabled
ARS: Disabled
Difficulty: None

A few relevant saves available if needed.
You appear to have selected "Derby line disabled" on your startup options - as such I'm not sure this isn't intended behaviour.

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 30/03/2020 at 02:55 #125155
UKTrainMan
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JamesN in post 125153 said:
You appear to have selected "Derby line disabled" on your startup options - as such I'm not sure this isn't intended behaviour.
If this is intended behaviour then I must wonder whether or not I should be able to 'reverse' this by simply reassigning the timetable.

Of course if it truly is intended behaviour then this probably needs adding to the manual, or the potentially relevant bit in the manual needs clarifying better. No warning was received relating to my startup option regarding Derby Lines being disabled and the timetable being incompatible.

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Last edited: 30/03/2020 at 03:03 by UKTrainMan
Reason: None given

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 30/03/2020 at 04:15 #125156
headshot119
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If you want to play with the Derby Lines enabled, then you'd need to restart the session with the relevant start up options selected.
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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 30/03/2020 at 13:55 #125164
Albert
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UKTrainMan in post 125155 said:
JamesN in post 125153 said:
You appear to have selected "Derby line disabled" on your startup options - as such I'm not sure this isn't intended behaviour.
If this is intended behaviour then I must wonder whether or not I should be able to 'reverse' this by simply reassigning the timetable.

Of course if it truly is intended behaviour then this probably needs adding to the manual, or the potentially relevant bit in the manual needs clarifying better. No warning was received relating to my startup option regarding Derby Lines being disabled and the timetable being incompatible.
The timetable author did not mark the TT as incompatible, probably because no trains are scheduled to use the loops on the Derby line - they are just calling at stations.

As I see it, trains skipping station stops because the Derby line is disabled, is not intended behaviour. The manual only describes that it will not be possible to use loops or sidings with this option ticked.

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 30/03/2020 at 19:27 #125171
UKTrainMan
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headshot119 in post 125156 said:
If you want to play with the Derby Lines enabled, then you'd need to restart the session with the relevant start up options selected.
But I don't want to play with Derby Line/Lines enabled. My point is I've noticed something simulation-based happening, albeit relatively minor (it doesn't directly stop me playing), which is not described in the manual and therefore under normal circumstances could be considered a bug.

Albert in post 125164 said:
UKTrainMan in post 125155 said:
JamesN in post 125153 said:
You appear to have selected "Derby line disabled" on your startup options - as such I'm not sure this isn't intended behaviour.
If this is intended behaviour then I must wonder whether or not I should be able to 'reverse' this by simply reassigning the timetable.

Of course if it truly is intended behaviour then this probably needs adding to the manual, or the potentially relevant bit in the manual needs clarifying better. No warning was received relating to my startup option regarding Derby Lines being disabled and the timetable being incompatible.
The timetable author did not mark the TT as incompatible, probably because no trains are scheduled to use the loops on the Derby line - they are just calling at stations.

As I see it, trains skipping station stops because the Derby line is disabled, is not intended behaviour. The manual only describes that it will not be possible to use loops or sidings with this option ticked.
My mention of the TT compatibility warning was mainly because the manual, after mentioning the Derby Line/Lines disable option, appears to talk about the simulation warning if a timetable is incompatible with that option upon load, because of a train perhaps using one of the goods loops at Caverswall. I don't think that timetable writers can specifically warn about simulation load-up options being incompatible, except in the TT description box. But in any case, it seems that all trains in the current timetable in use actually merely run straight through anyway.

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 30/03/2020 at 19:51 #125175
Albert
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The preferred scenario can be set in the timetable editor: see the screenshot, it is not configured for this timetable. What kind of warning you get if you make a different choice, I didn't test.


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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 30/03/2020 at 19:57 #125179
Meld
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Okay - The Staffordshire timetables were designed to work in either mode, hence no need to enable Derby lines in the actual TT, they work fine with or without Derby added.
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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 30/03/2020 at 20:43 #125181
pedroathome
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The operation of the Derby Lines is designed so that as many timetables as possible which travel through the section will work without any issues. By removing all locations from the entry point at the Derby end, up to Longton on the Stoke end, means that any possible combination of anything which is timetabled will work without any issues.

The only difference this makes to the player is the fact that trains will recover extra time should they be delayed, but will still wait until time at Longton. (To the player, the train might be stood here longer than usual).

As for setting up the scenario, this is a feature which has been added since the initial release of Staffordshire. I think this was either around the release of London Bridge or Three Bridges (Can’t remember which).


James

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 31/03/2020 at 18:51 #125237
UKTrainMan
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Sorry but if all trains in a timetable run straight through the Derby Line/Lines workstation, which all trains in this timetable seem to do, it is completely illogical to me for the simulation to remove most of the timing points just to avoid any non-existent issues with this timetable/under this scenario from cropping up. Leaving them in does not affect the running. Granted it also does not affect the running of the simulation to remove the timing points, but it does detract slightly from the usual high standard of realism SimSig should quite rightly be proud of.

However, I am happy to simply agree to disagree on this.

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 31/03/2020 at 18:57 #125238
Stephen Fulcher
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Does it matter as long as they arrive in the right order at Stoke? Just hold them to time.

If you've turned the Derby lines off you can't be too bothered anyway or you'd have left them on and signalled them.

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 31/03/2020 at 19:09 #125239
postal
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Perhaps as a future enhancement the sim could be re-written to have some sort of user-selectable auto-working on the Derby lines (which would take account of the TTs, timing points etc.) rather than just the blanket "all trains run through non-stop" which turning off the Derby lines currently allows.
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Last edited: 31/03/2020 at 19:10 by postal
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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 31/03/2020 at 23:42 #125252
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Looking at the signal number plan, it seems to me that dividing, joining or reversing is not possible in any of the platforms (correct me if I'm wrong about Uttoxeter,) so it would seem like a pretty harmless solution to remove all timing points except the stations themselves.

Of course, even though it sounds easy, it may not be that easy to implement in the sim.

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 31/03/2020 at 23:50 #125253
jc92
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I think perhaps a note in the manual might be sufficient.

I echo the comments that as long as trains arrive/pass Longton at the correct time it doesn't matter and the best option short of removing the section and having to provide a separate TT.

incidentally why don't trains call at the stations? is it to prevent phone calls about delays etc?

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Derby Line trains losing most of their timing points 31/03/2020 at 23:56 #125254
headshot119
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The threads become a bit circular.

To summarise, if you want to have a fully accurate simulation of the whole area including the Derby Lines , you need to run the sim with that startup option enabled.

If you want to run the area without the Derby Lines , you can do likewise with the startup options, but the effective off sim area becomes simplified.

I will ask the developer to look into expanding the manual information on this subject.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
Last edited: 31/03/2020 at 23:56 by headshot119
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