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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 09:55 #126993
Splodge
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Out of interest, would it be possible to add 'max speed' as an option? I keep getting stung on 1980s TTs when class 6 trains have different speeds
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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 12:38 #126995
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Splodge in post 126993 said:
Out of interest, would it be possible to add 'max speed' as an option? I keep getting stung on 1980s TTs when class 6 trains have different speeds :D
Class 6 trains have a max permitted speed of 60mph. The time it takes to get to line speed will depend on it's load, gradient of the line etc.

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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 12:55 #126997
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Hap in post 126995 said:
Splodge in post 126993 said:
Out of interest, would it be possible to add 'max speed' as an option? I keep getting stung on 1980s TTs when class 6 trains have different speeds :D
Class 6 trains have a max permitted speed of 60mph. The time it takes to get to line speed will depend on it's load, gradient of the line etc.
The Hardendale - Ravenscraig Ore trains are limited to 35mph but run under a Class 6 headcode.

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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 14:22 #127000
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Class 6 did not mean 60mph. It meant a fully fitted train running up to a maximum speed of 60mph depending on available brake force, maximum speed of the wagons and in a few cases route availability of the wagons.

A few examples...CSV (presflos) were limited to 55 mph loaded but ran Class 6 after a very serious accident on the ECML near Thirsk revealed bad riding problems on the wagons at their design speed.

Vanfit trains conveying sugar beet traffic ran Class 6 fully fitted but the wagons were limited to 45 mph. Loaded MGR trains ran either Class 6 or 7 depending on brake force available but some ran Class 6 and 45 mph if they conveyed a fitted brake van for use by the guard on certain branch lines where there were a lot of guard operated crossings...

There were many more of course....

Hope that is of interest....

Vince

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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 15:56 #127001
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Thanks for that Vince. What were the original definitions for the train classes? I'd only heard of the speed-based definitions.
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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 16:20 #127002
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Early 1980's timetables have a 'Class6+' which were permitted at 60mph with the additional note:

(Club symbol) maximum speed 60mph (Class 6+) or 55mph (Class6) permissible, 4 wheeled vehicles with a wheelbase of 10 feet or less must not be conveyed on this train.

These are generally air braked trains. Excluding trips there were very few class 7 and 8.

In the 1981-82 WTT (which I used for Motherwell 1984 sim TT) 6D72 Oxwellmains - Viewpark has a specific column note 'Maximum speed 35mph'.
The Hardendale trains are 50mph in this WTT.

It does raise the question of trains without a specific note, 'club' or '+', what was the maximum speed required to maintain timings ?

Bill

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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 16:30 #127003
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under the 1960's description scheme trains were classified based on braking and type rather than speed

Cl.A/1 - Express passenger
Cl.B/2 - Local stopping passenger
Cl.C/3 - Parcels fish or fruit fully composed of "coaching stock"
Empty stock working
Cl.C/4 - Express freight fully piped with at least 50% brakes operative
Cl.D/5 - Express freight partially fitted with at least 1/3rd brakes operative
Cl.E/6 - Express Freight partially fitted with no less than 4 braked vehicles next to the engine
OR
Express Freight with a limited load NOT fitted with automatic brakes
Cl.F/7 - express freight NOT fitted with an automatic brake
Cl.G/0 - light loco or engine and brake van
Cl.H/8 - Through freight not running under any of the above codes
Cl.J/9 - Mineral or empty wagon train
Cl.K/9 - Freight train stopping at intermediate stations

My 1972 rulebook redefines a number of these as

Cl.3 - a freight authorised to operate at 90mph or over
Cl.4 - freight authorised to run at 75mph or over (rather than under)
Cl.5 - ECS
Cl.6 - Fully fitted company or block train OR Fully fitted express freight
Cl.7-8 - freights not fully fitted but with brakeforces shown in the working manual
Cl.9 - unfitted freight

As can be seen the classification is all about brakeforce so, for example the Hardendale Ravenscraig is a fully fitted company train, hence Class 6, however even with full braking, its still limited to 35mph because of the weight, quality of wagons and quality of brakeforce. similarly the Presflos Vince mentioned were 55mph but still class 6 as they rang in fully fitted Company trains.

Interestingly certain trains changed headcodes daily depending on their consistency. If for instance a train was made up of All air braked wagons on Monday it could run as 6***, however if the following day it was made up of say 10 air and 10 air piped, vacuum only wagons, it might run as 7***. this was quite common in the 70s where the wagon fleet was a major mix-up of brake types. An interesting read is the accident report on a SPAD and collision at Weaver junction caused by incorrect train classification.

These classifications didn't change until the requirement to have all freight fully fitted came in.

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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 18:01 #127006
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jc92 in post 127003 said:
under the 1960's description scheme trains were classified based on braking and type rather than speed

Cl.A/1 - Express passenger
Cl.B/2 - Local stopping passenger
Cl.C/3 - Parcels fish or fruit fully composed of "coaching stock"
Empty stock working
Cl.C/4 - Express freight fully piped with at least 50% brakes operative
Cl.D/5 - Express freight partially fitted with at least 1/3rd brakes operative
Cl.E/6 - Express Freight partially fitted with no less than 4 braked vehicles next to the engine
OR
Express Freight with a limited load NOT fitted with automatic brakes
Cl.F/7 - express freight NOT fitted with an automatic brake
Cl.G/0 - light loco or engine and brake van
Cl.H/8 - Through freight not running under any of the above codes
Cl.J/9 - Mineral or empty wagon train
Cl.K/9 - Freight train stopping at intermediate stations

My 1972 rulebook redefines a number of these as

Cl.3 - a freight authorised to operate at 90mph or over
Cl.4 - freight authorised to run at 75mph or over (rather than under)
Cl.5 - ECS
Cl.6 - Fully fitted company or block train OR Fully fitted express freight
Cl.7-8 - freights not fully fitted but with brakeforces shown in the working manual
Cl.9 - unfitted freight

As can be seen the classification is all about brakeforce so, for example the Hardendale Ravenscraig is a fully fitted company train, hence Class 6, however even with full braking, its still limited to 35mph because of the weight, quality of wagons and quality of brakeforce. similarly the Presflos Vince mentioned were 55mph but still class 6 as they rang in fully fitted Company trains.

Interestingly certain trains changed headcodes daily depending on their consistency. If for instance a train was made up of All air braked wagons on Monday it could run as 6***, however if the following day it was made up of say 10 air and 10 air piped, vacuum only wagons, it might run as 7***. this was quite common in the 70s where the wagon fleet was a major mix-up of brake types. An interesting read is the accident report on a SPAD and collision at Weaver junction caused by incorrect train classification.

These classifications didn't change until the requirement to have all freight fully fitted came in.
Excellent summation.

I don't think I could add much to that except that Class 3 were exclusively parcel workings in the 70s conveying Mark 1 bogie NPCCS able to run at 90mph or more.

Class 4 with a number in the range 00 to 39 (e.g. 4M25) were parcel trains able to run at 75mph

Class 4 with a number in the range 40 to 99 (e.g. 4S88) were freight trains able to run at 75mph - usually (but not exclusively) Freightliners or block trains conveying semi- permanently coupled Cartic 3 or 4 sets.

As far as my route availability comment is concerned, it was always possible that a BR29973 form could authorise a train to run conveying higher RA vehicles than the RA of the route is was booked to run over, subject to any restrictions printed in the form. These restrictions may (and often did) include speed restrictions, thus you may find that, say an RA10 train operating over an RA7 route may be restricted to a lower speed over quite significant lengths of route than its classification would normally allow.



Vince

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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 19:06 #127007
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As an aside, running at a lower speed between a pair of locations is something penciled-in for in the next-but-one release (ie not this one coming up, but the next). More for work equipment actually working rather than travelling to/from the work site, but I guess could also apply to restrictions mentioned in this thread.
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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 21:19 #127008
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Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.
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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 21:23 #127009
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Splodge in post 127008 said:
Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.
A fair point to raise here is that when Carlisle 79 was written and tested, the notes function wasn't existent. maybe a future update could include a note confirming a restrictive speed on such workings. one for John or Pascal.

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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 21:25 #127010
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jc92 in post 127009 said:
Splodge in post 127008 said:
Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.
A fair point to raise here is that when Carlisle 79 was written and tested, the notes function wasn't existent. maybe a future update could include a note confirming a restrictive speed on such workings. one for John or Pascal.
It'd make far more sense to put that in the train description that the notes.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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F2 customisation 22/05/2020 at 22:10 #127014
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I think it'd also be useful for loading operations such as at Gascoigne Wood, in the relatively few places where loading occurs on-sim. Current TTs just have the train sit under the loader for a specified amount of time, but actually the train is slowly dragged over/under the loader, so that the latter attends to each wagon in turn. This has implications for which sections of track are occupied and thus unavailable for run-round moves.
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Train speeds and classes 22/05/2020 at 22:13 #127015
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Split off from https://www.simsig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/50779
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Train speeds and classes Yesterday at 00:12 #127019
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headshot119 in post 127010 said:
jc92 in post 127009 said:
Splodge in post 127008 said:
Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.
A fair point to raise here is that when Carlisle 79 was written and tested, the notes function wasn't existent. maybe a future update could include a note confirming a restrictive speed on such workings. one for John or Pascal.
It'd make far more sense to put that in the train description that the notes.
If we are after historical accuracy, what is in the TT is what the signaller in the box saw. I don't see any reason to change what is currently available to make life easier today than it was when Mr. Taylor and his colleagues were running the PSB.

"No question is too stupid, there are just some stupid answers" - Dr. Michael Reece, 12/08/1927 - 03/06/2019. Electrical engineer and inventor
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Train speeds and classes Yesterday at 00:15 #127020
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postal in post 127019 said:
headshot119 in post 127010 said:
jc92 in post 127009 said:
Splodge in post 127008 said:
Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.
A fair point to raise here is that when Carlisle 79 was written and tested, the notes function wasn't existent. maybe a future update could include a note confirming a restrictive speed on such workings. one for John or Pascal.
It'd make far more sense to put that in the train description that the notes.
If we are after historical accuracy, what is in the TT is what the signaller in the box saw. I don't see any reason to change what is currently available to make life easier today than it was when Mr. Taylor and his colleagues were running the PSB.
I could quite subscribe to that point of view. My original point was that if it was going to be provided, it would make sense to use the "train description" field, after all, it would be "describing the train".

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Train speeds and classes Yesterday at 06:42 #127026
jc92
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postal in post 127019 said:
headshot119 in post 127010 said:
jc92 in post 127009 said:
Splodge in post 127008 said:
Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.
A fair point to raise here is that when Carlisle 79 was written and tested, the notes function wasn't existent. maybe a future update could include a note confirming a restrictive speed on such workings. one for John or Pascal.
It'd make far more sense to put that in the train description that the notes.
If we are after historical accuracy, what is in the TT is what the signaller in the box saw. I don't see any reason to change what is currently available to make life easier today than it was when Mr. Taylor and his colleagues were running the PSB.
And that was my point John. The WTT explicitly states "not to exceed 35mph" for the hardendale - ravenscraig workings. All there in black and tan. Photo attached


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Train speeds and classes Yesterday at 09:09 #127034
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jc92 in post 127026 said:
And that was my point John. The WTT explicitly states "not to exceed 35mph" for the hardendale - ravenscraig workings. All there in black and tan. Photo attached

That exactly proves the point about trying to be realistic. The real life signaller has to refer to the WTT to get that information. The SimSig signaller can do the same by referring to the SimSig TT. The only information on the displays on the panel would be the TD; the only information in the SigSig view is the TD. The SimSig signaller has the luxury of the F2 display which the real life signaller did not have.

Remember that there is nothing to stop the SimSig signaller doing the same sort of things as the real-life counterpart. They can use Post-It notes, they can add notes to their copy of the SimSig TT (although it would then be wisest to save the TT under an edited name as any update from the centre would over-write the file copy of the original TT) or they can use a separate file with a list of points to note. After all, this would just reflect real life; when Pascal originally created the TT he was lucky enough to have as part of the source documentation a copy of the Carlisle Stations As&Ds hand-annotated by Mr. Taylor with the notes that he thought would be helpful.

"No question is too stupid, there are just some stupid answers" - Dr. Michael Reece, 12/08/1927 - 03/06/2019. Electrical engineer and inventor
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Train speeds and classes Yesterday at 09:09 #127035
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jc92 in post 127003 said:
An interesting read is the accident report on a SPAD and collision at Weaver junction caused by incorrect train classification.
Similarly the report into the incident at Hertford North. Although classifications weren’t directly to blame for the crash, Major Holden devotes a chunk of his report to the guard’s erroneous belief the Class 9 train was limited to 25mph.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Hertford1978.pdf

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Train speeds and classes Yesterday at 09:24 #127036
jc92
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postal in post 127034 said:
jc92 in post 127026 said:
And that was my point John. The WTT explicitly states "not to exceed 35mph" for the hardendale - ravenscraig workings. All there in black and tan. Photo attached

That exactly proves the point about trying to be realistic. The real life signaller has to refer to the WTT to get that information. The SimSig signaller can do the same by referring to the SimSig TT. The only information on the displays on the panel would be the TD; the only information in the SigSig view is the TD. The SimSig signaller has the luxury of the F2 display which the real life signaller did not have.

Remember that there is nothing to stop the SimSig signaller doing the same sort of things as the real-life counterpart. They can use Post-It notes, they can add notes to their copy of the SimSig TT (although it would then be wisest to save the TT under an edited name as any update from the centre would over-write the file copy of the original TT) or they can use a separate file with a list of points to note. After all, this would just reflect real life; when Pascal originally created the TT he was lucky enough to have as part of the source documentation a copy of the Carlisle Stations As&Ds hand-annotated by Mr. Taylor with the notes that he thought would be helpful.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. In 1979 pretty much all the box would've had is a copy of the WTT and STN to refer to for train timings so this would've been more obvious if they were checking the trains timetable similar to opening the popup timetable info in simsig.

The box are unlikely to make notes on such a working though as it's a daily well known service. Every man in the box would know its a 35mph train anyway. Simsignallers don't have the same level of experience which is a compromise on real life (although incidentally I discussed this with pascal the other day - I've run it that much now I can do it in my sleep!)

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Train speeds and classes Yesterday at 09:31 #127037
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Until about 1983 (it was about the time I became supervisor at the Brent), timetable speeds for fully-fitted trains were given as 'up to Xmph'. Trains would indeed be reclassified from day to day according to what was being conveyed, so if a train booked as cl6 was made up of all 75mph car carrying vehicles, it would run as cl4. TOPS automatically output the appropriate classification on the train list.

The problem (one very particular problem that, I suspect, caught people out quite often) was when a train was made up of 100kmph ferry vans. TOPS would output a cl4 train list, and it would set off merrily as such. At a maximum speed of 62mph!!!

Around 1983, the wording of the classification was revised so cl4 was to be capable of 75mph, cl6 became 60mph, etc. Made regulating a whole lot easier.

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Train speeds and classes Yesterday at 10:48 #127038
Zoe
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kbarber in post 127037 said:
Until about 1983 (it was about the time I became supervisor at the Brent), timetable speeds for fully-fitted trains were given as 'up to Xmph'. Trains would indeed be reclassified from day to day according to what was being conveyed, so if a train booked as cl6 was made up of all 75mph car carrying vehicles, it would run as cl4. TOPS automatically output the appropriate classification on the train list.

The problem (one very particular problem that, I suspect, caught people out quite often) was when a train was made up of 100kmph ferry vans. TOPS would output a cl4 train list, and it would set off merrily as such. At a maximum speed of 62mph!!!

Around 1983, the wording of the classification was revised so cl4 was to be capable of 75mph, cl6 became 60mph, etc. Made regulating a whole lot easier.

Interesting, the 1972 block book shows:

Class 3 - Express parcels train composed of vehicles permitted to run at 90 mph or over (1-3-1).

Class 4 - Freightliner train (3-2-5) or Parcels train, Company or express freight train composed of vehicles permitted to run at 75 mph or over (3-1-1).

Was there a change to "up to x mph" later in the 1970s or were the classifications shown in the block book not actually correct?

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Train speeds and classes Yesterday at 13:02 #127042
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kbarber in post 127037 said:
Until about 1983 (it was about the time I became supervisor at the Brent), timetable speeds for fully-fitted trains were given as 'up to Xmph'. .....

Around 1983, the wording of the classification was revised so cl4 was to be capable of 75mph, cl6 became 60mph, etc.
From the WTT that I have, the change would be sometime between 1985 and 1990. The 1981-84's only mention maximum speed by exception (the cement, lime as above) or the 'club' / + symbol for the 55 and 60mph class 6 / 6+ trains. There is however a very common 'black square' note referring to a separate loading book for classes 4 - 8.
By calculation, a 'no note' train comes out at 45mph based on the downhill Beattock Summit - Abington.

Would the change have come alongside the default of air braking, ie that 'VB' was the note not 'ABS'/'AIR' ?

Bill

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Train speeds and classes Yesterday at 14:37 #127043
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For anyone not seen a TOPs Train List, here's one I've scanned for 7Z40C 0745 Merehead - Acton Yard on 1989-05-26. It shows the loco & all the wagons in train order & each portion setout to Acton Yard[73250 TOPS location number]. The section at the bottom is the driver's slip which gives details of the train max. speed, the max tonnage of the route for that particular loco on the left & on the right is the actual train tonnage along with the max. permitted speed of the train.
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Train speeds and classes Today at 09:41 #127060
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Zoe in post 127038 said:
kbarber in post 127037 said:
Until about 1983 (it was about the time I became supervisor at the Brent), timetable speeds for fully-fitted trains were given as 'up to Xmph'. Trains would indeed be reclassified from day to day according to what was being conveyed, so if a train booked as cl6 was made up of all 75mph car carrying vehicles, it would run as cl4. TOPS automatically output the appropriate classification on the train list.

The problem (one very particular problem that, I suspect, caught people out quite often) was when a train was made up of 100kmph ferry vans. TOPS would output a cl4 train list, and it would set off merrily as such. At a maximum speed of 62mph!!!

Around 1983, the wording of the classification was revised so cl4 was to be capable of 75mph, cl6 became 60mph, etc. Made regulating a whole lot easier.

Interesting, the 1972 block book shows:

Class 3 - Express parcels train composed of vehicles permitted to run at 90 mph or over (1-3-1).

Class 4 - Freightliner train (3-2-5) or Parcels train, Company or express freight train composed of vehicles permitted to run at 75 mph or over (3-1-1).

Was there a change to "up to x mph" later in the 1970s or were the classifications shown in the block book not actually correct?
That's interesting... I didn't think to look in the Block Book. But I certainly recall cl4 being anything over 60mph (I never thought, at the time, to question the implications - it was the Area Manager, when we were in conversation around the time I arrived at the Brent, who mentioned it). So where was that classification? Working Manual? Appendix? Not sure.

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