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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 26/05/2020 at 19:50 #127143
ajax103
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Question for those who are more up to date with the various rules and regulations but can you start a train in passenger service using a shunt signal or are the shunt signals only intended as the name says for signalled shunts of non passenger services?

I understand you can have degraded working during engineering works but day to day is it permitted?

I ask this because on the Feltham session last night I had a ECS from Waterloo/Wimbledon which was meant to be routed to Hounslow via Twickenham but instead was routed via Brentford, the driver didn't query the route so I told the driver to change ends in the station and start off to Waterloo using Signal F444 as the starter.

Was I in the right or wrong to do this?

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 26/05/2020 at 19:58 #127144
JamesN
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A shunt signal can be used to start a passenger train

1) Where specially authorised in the Sectional Appendix / Box Instructions

2) Where authority has been granted to do so by ops control / on call / etc

On Feltham’s patch I’m aware that the Down Platform at Staines has such an exemption - I don’t recall if a similar exemption exists for Hounslow.

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 26/05/2020 at 20:00 #127145
headshot119
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You say it was an ECS train involved, in which case, it's not a passenger train starting on a shunt signal.
"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 26/05/2020 at 20:12 #127147
jc92
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I beleive at one point there was a service that started at gilberyke, using a shunt route to cross from the down to the up to head towards selby which was a timetabled move. Nowadays there's a main aspect in place of a shunt route since it went over to brough workstation.

Sheffield also has box instructions for trains departing North from P6 and P8 towards nunnery mainline, both departing on GPL/subs.

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 26/05/2020 at 20:29 #127148
Sacro
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jc92 in post 127147 said:
I beleive at one point there was a service that started at gilberyke, using a shunt route to cross from the down to the up to head towards selby which was a timetabled move. Nowadays there's a main aspect in place of a shunt route since it went over to brough workstation.

Sheffield also has box instructions for trains departing North from P6 and P8 towards nunnery mainline, both departing on GPL/subs.
Yes, the shunt via G32, now done via SG1901.

There's an exception in at Goole for reversing a passenger train from 90, and over into platform 2.

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 26/05/2020 at 21:23 #127150
Hap
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One signal I have used plenty of times to turn back in passenger service is the PLS on the down Holytown heading back to Edinburgh, It's in the SA.

Kirkcaldy up line in down direction I believe is ok during engineering works, done that plenty of times too.

NOT allowed on PL3 at Haymarket in the down direction.

HAP
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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 26/05/2020 at 21:26 #127151
ajax103
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headshot119 in post 127145 said:
You say it was an ECS train involved, in which case, it's not a passenger train starting on a shunt signal.
The train in question was booked to arrive at Hounslow on the Barnes bound platform from the Twickenham direction as ECS which then should form a passenger service from Hounslow to Waterloo via Brentford.

The train for some reason actually arrived at Hounslow on the Staines bound platform from the Barnes direction as ECS which I had to ask the host to tell the driver to change ends and tell the train to step up to it's next working which was a passenger service from Hounslow to Waterloo via Brentford.

With authority being given to a shunt signal can be used to start a passenger train, can a signaller give this authority or is it a decision taken at a higher level eg the signalling shift manager/train service manager?

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 27/05/2020 at 09:00 #127158
kbarber
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ajax103 in post 127151 said:

<snip>
With authority being given to a shunt signal can be used to start a passenger train, can a signaller give this authority or is it a decision taken at a higher level eg the signalling shift manager/train service manager?
As James says, it can be done on the authority of Control/on-call/etc. (Don't ask me what etc might cover these days!) I suspect the host might be considered to be Control, so if the host agrees your move you can do it. If host says no, you need to find another way out of the mess.

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 27/05/2020 at 23:20 #127185
Trainfan344
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With those trains, you have two options, reverse at Hounslow and use the shunt signal or run to twickenham and reverse in P3/4 at Twickenham
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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 28/05/2020 at 18:17 #127193
Ron_J
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kbarber in post 127158 said:
ajax103 in post 127151 said:

<snip>
With authority being given to a shunt signal can be used to start a passenger train, can a signaller give this authority or is it a decision taken at a higher level eg the signalling shift manager/train service manager?
As James says, it can be done on the authority of Control/on-call/etc. (Don't ask me what etc might cover these days!) I suspect the host might be considered to be Control, so if the host agrees your move you can do it. If host says no, you need to find another way out of the mess.
Generally the RCMs in Control are very reluctant to get involved in ‘authorising’ anything operational (other than Modified Working) these days and tend to refer almost everything to the on call LOM. Remember the Network Rail RCM, IC, OC and TRC grades aren’t rules competent.

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 29/05/2020 at 20:15 #127213
ajax103
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Ron_J in post 127193 said:
kbarber in post 127158 said:
ajax103 in post 127151 said:

<snip>
With authority being given to a shunt signal can be used to start a passenger train, can a signaller give this authority or is it a decision taken at a higher level eg the signalling shift manager/train service manager?
As James says, it can be done on the authority of Control/on-call/etc. (Don't ask me what etc might cover these days!) I suspect the host might be considered to be Control, so if the host agrees your move you can do it. If host says no, you need to find another way out of the mess.
Generally the RCMs in Control are very reluctant to get involved in ‘authorising’ anything operational (other than Modified Working) these days and tend to refer almost everything to the on call LOM. Remember the Network Rail RCM, IC, OC and TRC grades aren’t rules competent.
RCM, IC, OC and TRC grades? Can you explain what they actually stand for please? I think LOM stands for Local Operations Manager and MOM I'm sure stands for Mobile Operations Manager but apart from the two different letters at the beginning of the short code used, what's the difference between the two in what do they actually do?

I know MOMs get called out for incidents, retriving items from the trackside etc but LOMs not too sure

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 29/05/2020 at 20:53 #127218
jc92
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The LOM is in charge of managing a given area in general, for instance recruitment, making sure sickness is covered, reviewing local instructions etc, ie the big cheese for that given area.

A MOM is there to respond to incidents as they occur and attend on site issues and events, a far more "practical" role.

TRC - train running controller

Last edited: 29/05/2020 at 20:54 by jc92
Reason: None given

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 29/05/2020 at 21:38 #127219
Ron_J
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Different grades of controller..

RCM - Route Control Manager
IC - Incident Controller
OC - Operations Controller
TRC - Train Running Controller

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 30/05/2020 at 12:01 #127235
bill_gensheet
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Would a practical solution be to turn back ECS from the PL and only restart at the next station ?

Bill

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Starting a passenger service using a shunt signal as the platform starter 30/05/2020 at 12:55 #127239
Phil-jmw
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Ron_J in post 127219 said:
Different grades of controller..

RCM - Route Control Manager
IC - Incident Controller
OC - Operations Controller
TRC - Train Running Controller
I was a controller when these grades were introduced in 2008. There was no OC, just RCM, IC (covered ops and infrastructure faulting) and TRC.

Last edited: 30/05/2020 at 12:57 by Phil-jmw
Reason: None given

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