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| Earliest flyover 20/06/2020 at 17:42 #127725 | |
Humorist
102 posts |
bill_gensheet in post 127717 said:So far the top 3 seem to be:A look around Joe Brown's London Rail Atlas gives a few other possibilities: Royal Oak diveunder - 12 May 1878 Sydenham Junction, from Crystal Palace - 10 Jun 1854 (this may depend on whether the LCRR main line was first built as two or four tracks) Norwood North Junction - 01 Oct 1857 Streatham Common Junctions - 01 Oct 1868 Turnham Green Junction - 01 Jan 1869 Twickenham Junction - 22 Oct 1883 Raynes Park and New Malden Jcts - both 1883 New Cross Gate (ELR) - 01 Jul 1876 Windmill Bridge Junction - parts appear to have been grade-separated from about 1865 Tottenham South Curve - 1870 Cromwell Road diveunder - 01 Feb 1878 Acton Town looks to have been built grade separated in 1879 Some of those must surely count. Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 20/06/2020 at 20:37 #127730 | |
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bill_gensheet
1316 posts |
The two for Crystal Palace look like winners, and the Norwood - Selhurst line at Windmill Bridge quite promising. I think the likes of Streatham are interesting in being separated fast/slow rather than up/down, up to Clive as to whether these fit the 'elimination of diamond' criteria. Streatham still has 5 flat junctions in there. Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 21/06/2020 at 08:01 #127738 | |
Giantray
330 posts |
August 1877, the "skew bridge"(fly-over) as it was called then opened north of Copenhagen Tunnel near Kings Cross to enable goods traffic to go over passenger trains from the Up slow through the tunnel into Kings Cross Goods Yard. It was different to the 1970s version that is there now. August 1867 as already mentioned above is the GN Highgate Branch Up Line that "flew over" all lines to Finsbury Park Station. North of Harringay station which was there by the 1890s, as was the one from the Down Slow to the Hertford Loop at Wood Green. Trent Lane Junction (GNR)before 1890 Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution.. Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 22/06/2020 at 09:59 #127780 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
Humorist in post 127725 said:bill_gensheet in post 127717 said:Tottenham South Curve was a conventional flat junction at both ends as far as I know, and did not in any case cross any other railway.So far the top 3 seem to be:A look around Joe Brown's London Rail Atlas gives a few other possibilities: I wonder if you had Tottenham North Curve in mind? At the time it was built, it was the beginning of the Tottenham and Hampstead Railway to Kentish Town (where it accessed the Midland Railway on the West side, after flying over all lines). The Tottenham and Forest Gate line to Woodgrange Park was built some years later (although it is the 'main line' nowadays, it is easy to see that it curves away northward from the original line towards the GE Lea Valley line, before swinging back to an easterly direction), so at the date of building the North Curve and the Lea Valley didn't cross any other railway at that point. Eventually, of course, it was the South Curve that survived. It's worth asking exactly what we mean when talking about a flyover junction. As I say, the T&H joined the Midland Main Line on the West side after passing over it on a bridge, but the junction itself was a conventional flat junction with no grade separation. (Actually, it was a little more complicated than that... the T&H lines passed over the Goods lines (which were on the western side of the layout) on the level, with slip connections, before joining the Fast lines in a conventional flat junction.) That is quite different, in my mind, to the grade separation and elimination of conflicting movements that a true flyover junction would offer. I wonder if Clive would expand on which situation he had in mind when asking the question? Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 24/06/2020 at 13:27 #127828 | |
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Chromatix
190 posts |
The current configuration of Weaver Junction is a good example of a proper flying junction. The Up Liverpool crosses the WCML on a bridge, while the Down Liverpool stays on its own side. Thus the expected conflict between the Up Liverpool and Down Preston is removed, without introducing an alternative conflict between the Down Liverpool and Up Preston.
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| Earliest flyover 25/06/2020 at 14:39 #127858 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
kbarber in post 127780 said:As far as I'm concerned, a flyover/diveunder junction is one where any pair of moves not using the same tracks can be made at the same time. So in the case of a simple left-hand double junction, you can't do down main at the same time as branch to up. Put in a flyover or diveunder and you can. For this purpose I'm willing to consider adjacent parallel tracks in the same direction as one track. If you look at the Finsbury Park case, you can't have a branch to Up Fast train at the same time as a train through on the Up Slow, but I consider that as separate branch to Up Slow and Up crossover moves, so it's still a flyover junction. I would say that Norwood Fork Junction is a flyover junction but Windmill Bridge Junction isn't even though the Victoria Fasts fly over the Wallingtons. [Old Quail, names may have changed.] South Tottenham East Junction is not a flyover junction and still wouldn't be if the curve to the Lea Valley faced the other way (I presume that's what the "north curve" you refer to did). Similarly Woodgrange Park Jn isn't one. I can't answer for the junction on the Midland - I can't visualize it - but it sounds not. Barking Tilbury Line Jn West is a hybrid: it's a flyover junction viewed from platforms 7 & 8 but a flat one viewed from East Ham depot. Does that help? Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 25/06/2020 at 22:30 #128003 | |
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Humorist
102 posts |
Chromatix in post 127828 said:The current configuration of Weaver Junction is a good example of a proper flying junction. The Up Liverpool crosses the WCML on a bridge, while the Down Liverpool stays on its own side. Thus the expected conflict between the Up Liverpool and Down Preston is removed, without introducing an alternative conflict between the Down Liverpool and Up Preston.Colonel Michael Cobb puts the opening date of the branch to Runcorn as 1869, from the main line opened in 1837. There's no sign that Weaver Junction was ever configured from the outset as other than a flying (grade separated) junction. Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 26/06/2020 at 08:19 #128045 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
Humorist in post 128003 said:Um. Weaver Junction (then "Birdswood Junction"  doesn't have a flyover on the 1877 OS map; it's a simple double junction with a short siding on the west side connecting to the Down Liverpool only. The same is true on the 1881 map and it's only the 1898 one that shows the flyover and the much gentler Down Liverpool curve.Wikipedia says "The junction between the main line to Warrington and the north, and the direct line to Runcorn and Liverpool was originally from the date of opening in 1869, a flat junction at Birdswood. The flyover carrying the Liverpool line over the main line at Birdswood was not opened until 13 November 1881." which is consistent with those maps. Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 26/06/2020 at 09:43 #128057 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
clive in post 127858 said:kbarber in post 127780 said:Yes, thanks. I would have assumed your definition, but it's good to be clear.As far as I'm concerned, a flyover/diveunder junction is one where any pair of moves not using the same tracks can be made at the same time. So in the case of a simple left-hand double junction, you can't do down main at the same time as branch to up. Put in a flyover or diveunder and you can. Tottenham North Curve was the original connection, at a time when no railway passed over or under any other in that area. But it did allow the GER (or was it ECR at that date?) to run a shortlived service into St Pancras. As you say, not a flyover junction even now. Woodgrange Park definitely never was. Kentish Town Junction signalling diagram here https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M839.gif with the pre-1957 (semaphore) signalling. Must have been a nightmare for the Pway! But again, definitely no flyover junction. Operationally I'd think of Barking West as two junctions. LTS Main Line to Tilbury Line is a flat junction, notwithstanding the separation of the up & down road junction points and lots of flyover legs planted in the middle of it all. Tilbury Line and Wodgrange Park Line definitely a flyover junction, dating from about 1960 (incidentally the BTF film 'The Signal Engineers' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MegwcTkE9Js includes footage of the abolition of the old Barking West Junction box, and commissioning the SGE NX panel that took over). But others have answered your original question rather better than me. Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 26/06/2020 at 09:55 #128062 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
One flying junction that I don't think's been mentioned yet, although I doubt it is a challenger on date grounds, is the eastern end of the Doncaster avoiding line. Does anyone know when that was built? My assumption would be in the 1910s but it's only an assumption.
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| Earliest flyover 26/06/2020 at 11:49 #128076 | |
Meld
1098 posts 
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If your on about the GE/GN Joint Line - Finningley Station opened in 1867 - a search for Black Carr Jn reveals OS plans 1884/5 published in 1889 so I would assume that the flyover was commissioned around that time. However the Hexthorpe avoider between Hexthorpe Jn & Bentley Jn which crosses the ECML just north of Doncaster opened in 1910, and the bridge design is very similar/identical style to the Bessacar(Black Carr) flyover so that may be even later
Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 26/06/2020 at 12:15 #128079 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
kbarber in post 128057 said:Thanks. That's what I'd guessed from your description, but it's good to know. Definitely not a flyover junction. As for P-way, surely nothing like as bad as the old Newcastle East Jn (where every rail crossing was at a different angle) or even the current King's Cross throat with those switch diamond double slips. kbarber in post 128057 said: Arguably. The fact that they're protected by consecutive signals rather than the same one supports your view. kbarber in post 128057 said: I think my late cousin David might have been involved in doing that work; unfortunately he succumbed to Covid-19 in a care home a couple of months ago. kbarber in post 128057 said: I still need to consolidate the comments from others, but let me say thanks for all the contributions and suggestions. Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 26/06/2020 at 13:38 #128091 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
Meld in post 128076 said:If your on about the GE/GN Joint Line - Finningley Station opened in 1867 - a search for Black Carr Jn reveals OS plans 1884/5 published in 1889 so I would assume that the flyover was commissioned around that time.The OS map for 1904 shows it as a simple junction. The next one on the site I'm using is 1930, which shows five flyovers: LMSR (Dearne Valley) Up over Joint, LMSR over LNER, South Yorkshire Joint over LMSR, SYJ over LNER, and trackless curve from SYJ to Decoy Sidings over LMSR. Log in to reply |
| Earliest flyover 26/06/2020 at 16:12 #128104 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
Meld in post 128076 said:If your on about the GE/GN Joint Line - Finningley Station opened in 1867 - a search for Black Carr Jn reveals OS plans 1884/5 published in 1889 so I would assume that the flyover was commissioned around that time. However the Hexthorpe avoider between Hexthorpe Jn & Bentley Jn which crosses the ECML just north of Doncaster opened in 1910, and the bridge design is very similar/identical style to the Bessacar(Black Carr) flyover so that may be even laterAh, I was thinking of Bentley Jn but couldn't remember the name. Thank you! My assumption was that it would be circa 1910 because of all the upgrade works the GCR did around then in association with Immingham Dock opening in 1912. Log in to reply |
