Cheshire Lines FAQ

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 07/07/2020 at 21:12 #129238
Splodge
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The Metrolink rulebook is a much, much slimmer volume - I suspect derived from heavy rail rules but adapted as required.
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 07/07/2020 at 21:26 #129239
whatlep
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Trainfan344 in post 129218 said:
During busy running the best technique seems to be to keep the crossing closest to where the trams are passing down and raise the other one. So if a tram is exiting to Trimley and one is entering keep the Deansgate Lane Barriers down and raise the Navigation road barriers and vice versa. This way the barriers are generally only down for about 3/4 minutes each time.
In BR days, Navigation Road barriers were generally held down to allow two trains to pass while Deansgate Jn was treated more ad hoc. There was less pressure about Deansgate Lane as it was (presumably is) a less important throughfare. Navigation Road was the subject of constant complaints to BR about the length of time it was shut in the rush hour - usually more minutes per hour than it was open. That was back in the time when trains were running at 5 minute headways in parts of peak hours.

Not sure how it works these days, but there used to be a standing instruction that no heavy freight could leave Deansgate Jn unless the route was completely clear, including all level crossings shut, at least as far as Hale station. The risk of a train stalling on the sharp gradient between Altrincham and Hale was considered too great. In practice, Deansgate Jn would warn Hale as soon as a freight started moving past the box, so the crossing at Hale could be lowered too, a tricky task at that place in the rush hour.

Last edited: 07/07/2020 at 21:26 by whatlep
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 09/07/2020 at 20:16 #129395
whatlep
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Think I've found two errors in the locations coding around Northwich.

1) It doesn't seem possible to timetable a train directly into the Up Reception line from Northwich station. It appears only to be possible via the UGL, though the signalled route exists.
2) Timetabling a train from Oakleigh to the Sandbach line seems to throw up problems between Hartford East Jn and Northwich West Jns. Please see error message associated with 0Z00MWFO-1010 in the attached draft timetable.

Still fun though!

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 10/07/2020 at 03:50 #129413
pedroathome
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whatlep in post 129395 said:
Think I've found two errors in the locations coding around Northwich.

1) It doesn't seem possible to timetable a train directly into the Up Reception line from Northwich station. It appears only to be possible via the UGL, though the signalled route exists.
2) Timetabling a train from Oakleigh to the Sandbach line seems to throw up problems between Hartford East Jn and Northwich West Jns. Please see error message associated with 0Z00MWFO-1010 in the attached draft timetable.

Still fun though!
2 - I will have to look at this when I am home.

1 - I can't remember numbers here, but the point work to get to the up reception towards the UGL is quite short. There is no point worth that I'm aware of that would have allowed a train to go in without first having a reversal.

James

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 10/07/2020 at 11:55 #129426
whatlep
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pedroathome in post 129413 said:
whatlep in post 129395 said:
Think I've found two errors in the locations coding around Northwich.

1) It doesn't seem possible to timetable a train directly into the Up Reception line from Northwich station. It appears only to be possible via the UGL, though the signalled route exists.

1 - I can't remember numbers here, but the point work to get to the up reception towards the UGL is quite short. There is no point worth that I'm aware of that would have allowed a train to go in without first having a reversal.

James
Hi James. My 1990 documents suggest UGL was situated between 19m48ch & 19m77ch (1914 feet), with Up sidings access at 20m07ch and access to the Up reception loop from Northwich station at 20m33ch. For positioning, I also have Northwich station at 20m49ch.

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 13/07/2020 at 01:31 #129530
whatlep
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Questions re Mickle Trafford-Mouldsworth section. Is there aspecific algorithm to prioritise traffic over the single line section or is it simply "first come, first served"? Is there any way to modify what's in, or is that hard-coded into the Sim?

Thanks

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 13/07/2020 at 07:01 #129533
pedroathome
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whatlep in post 129530 said:
Questions re Mickle Trafford-Mouldsworth section. Is there aspecific algorithm to prioritise traffic over the single line section or is it simply "first come, first served"? Is there any way to modify what's in, or is that hard-coded into the Sim?

Thanks
When a train is approaching Signal MT1 or MT2, the onward route is set towards Mickle Trafford from Mouldsworth after a random time factor of between 30 and 60 seconds.

A train, to enter from Mickle Trafford, must have the single line clear, and the off sim points set Normal, so that a train can continue its way into sim.

There is no way to change this, however, I suspect that from the nature of your question, you're having a couple regulation issues because of it?

whatlep in post 129426 said:
pedroathome in post 129413 said:
whatlep in post 129395 said:
Think I've found two errors in the locations coding around Northwich.

1) It doesn't seem possible to timetable a train directly into the Up Reception line from Northwich station. It appears only to be possible via the UGL, though the signalled route exists.

1 - I can't remember numbers here, but the point work to get to the up reception towards the UGL is quite short. There is no point worth that I'm aware of that would have allowed a train to go in without first having a reversal.

James
Hi James. My 1990 documents suggest UGL was situated between 19m48ch & 19m77ch (1914 feet), with Up sidings access at 20m07ch and access to the Up reception loop from Northwich station at 20m33ch. For positioning, I also have Northwich station at 20m49ch.
Sorry its taken me a couple days to get back to you here, and this may not be a full answer.

By my measurements, the access point, which are trailing, towards the Up Reception Sidings, I have in as 280 meters. What I don't have however, is anything to suggest that a train could go directly into the Up Reception sidings without either a reversal within the Up Reception Line or going onto the Up Goods Line. As someone that sounds like you know the area, could you clarify if trains would have reversed on the Goods Loop, or would have gone just ahead of the point work on the Up Goods, and reversed there (Possibly with the signaller setting a route into the Up Goods if needed). Should it be the latter, I can easily add in an extra reversal location.

James

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 13/07/2020 at 14:47 #129546
whatlep
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pedroathome in post 129533 said:
whatlep in post 129530 said:
Questions re Mickle Trafford-Mouldsworth section. Is there aspecific algorithm to prioritise traffic over the single line section or is it simply "first come, first served"? Is there any way to modify what's in, or is that hard-coded into the Sim?

Thanks
When a train is approaching Signal MT1 or MT2, the onward route is set towards Mickle Trafford from Mouldsworth after a random time factor of between 30 and 60 seconds.

A train, to enter from Mickle Trafford, must have the single line clear, and the off sim points set Normal, so that a train can continue its way into sim.

There is no way to change this, however, I suspect that from the nature of your question, you're having a couple regulation issues because of it?

whatlep in post 129426 said:
pedroathome in post 129413 said:
whatlep in post 129395 said:
Think I've found two errors in the locations coding around Northwich.

1) It doesn't seem possible to timetable a train directly into the Up Reception line from Northwich station. It appears only to be possible via the UGL, though the signalled route exists.

1 - I can't remember numbers here, but the point work to get to the up reception towards the UGL is quite short. There is no point worth that I'm aware of that would have allowed a train to go in without first having a reversal.

James
Hi James. My 1990 documents suggest UGL was situated between 19m48ch & 19m77ch (1914 feet), with Up sidings access at 20m07ch and access to the Up reception loop from Northwich station at 20m33ch. For positioning, I also have Northwich station at 20m49ch.
Sorry its taken me a couple days to get back to you here, and this may not be a full answer.

By my measurements, the access point, which are trailing, towards the Up Reception Sidings, I have in as 280 meters. What I don't have however, is anything to suggest that a train could go directly into the Up Reception sidings without either a reversal within the Up Reception Line or going onto the Up Goods Line. As someone that sounds like you know the area, could you clarify if trains would have reversed on the Goods Loop, or would have gone just ahead of the point work on the Up Goods, and reversed there (Possibly with the signaller setting a route into the Up Goods if needed). Should it be the latter, I can easily add in an extra reversal location.

James
Thanks for the notes re Mickle Trafford - Mouldsworth. Yes, regulation is a problem without the junction and control of what enters at Mickle Trafford! Gives me something to think about this rainy afternoon....

Re the Up Sdgs, you're correct that access was solely by reversal. My query was more about the inability to timetable via the Up Reception line through to the UGL, but in the overall scheme of things, that's a nit. The issues around Greenbank, Plumley West and Altrincham reversals are much higher importance - though possibly only to an audience of old-timers!

Really like this simulation. I created one for the line around 20 years ago using the (long discontinued) Track Builder/ Train Dispatcher software and still have fun with that, but yours is in a different league.

Last edited: 13/07/2020 at 14:47 by whatlep
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 13/07/2020 at 22:12 #129556
pedroathome
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whatlep in post 129546 said:

Thanks for the notes re Mickle Trafford - Mouldsworth. Yes, regulation is a problem without the junction and control of what enters at Mickle Trafford! Gives me something to think about this rainy afternoon....

Re the Up Sdgs, you're correct that access was solely by reversal. My query was more about the inability to timetable via the Up Reception line through to the UGL, but in the overall scheme of things, that's a nit. The issues around Greenbank, Plumley West and Altrincham reversals are much higher importance - though possibly only to an audience of old-timers!

Really like this simulation. I created one for the line around 20 years ago using the (long discontinued) Track Builder/ Train Dispatcher software and still have fun with that, but yours is in a different league.
I might be able to look if there is a better way of regulating this fringe. The only thing of concern is that I do want the possibility that numerous trains will enter the sim, while not letting a train leave the sim.

The Up Reception timings was intentional, with the thought being that a train booked Up Reception would be referring to the sidings.

James

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 13/07/2020 at 22:35 #129558
Splodge
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Realistically a train from Mickle Trafford would be prioritised to avoid having it blocking the 'main' lines, and to keep services on time heading towards Stockport and Manchester (especially in modern TTs which have 50 minutes in Chester but only 10 in Piccadilly).
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 14/07/2020 at 11:55 #129574
whatlep
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Splodge in post 129558 said:
Realistically a train from Mickle Trafford would be prioritised to avoid having it blocking the 'main' lines, and to keep services on time heading towards Stockport and Manchester (especially in modern TTs which have 50 minutes in Chester but only 10 in Piccadilly).
That would have been the case in all eras for exactly the same reason, though an exception might have been made freight vs freight during the era the direct route to Mickle Trafford from Dee Marsh Jn was open and linked to the Mouldsworth line at Mickle Trafford.

Incidentally, time keeping was absolutely vital at the Manchester end before 1989 when Chester trains went directly to Manchester, sharing the route with EMUs at 5 minute intervals in rush hours. Post 1989, the schedules have been heavily padded and operators always have the option of terminating a train at Stockport. Both bete noirs of the line's users' association!

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 11/08/2020 at 14:51 #130557
whatlep
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Thanks for the updated version (V1.1) of Cheshire Lines. The extra work is appreciated. Checking through the amended items in pre-1991 mode I've found the following issues:

1) GK10 is accepted as a reversing location, but trains don't appear to change direction there. Possibly an issue with direction on the western leg of the triangle where up/down may be in reverse orientation to the rest of the simulation? See attached file for 07.56.
2) The Altrincham platform 1 ID issue is fixed, but the IDs of platforms 3&4 appear to be transposed. See attached file for 06.45 where 2H43 is in platform 4, but shown in the F2 train list as being in platform 3. The same inversion happens to trains using platform 3 which are shown in F2 as occupying p4.
3) Fixing the Timperley line speed at Deansgate Jn has revealed that line speeds through Altrincham are too high. The speed limit from 7 miles 62 chains to 8 miles 5 chains was 25mph on all lines. That roughly equates to signals AM59/62 to the Hale end of Altrincham station.

There still appears to be an issue getting trains that reverse at Plumley West to pick up their location correctly after reversing through the crossover there.

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 12/03/2021 at 16:23 #137759
hotwellian
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Hi,

Firtsly, thank you to developers and testers for this sim, which I find fascinating, especially the differences in traffic between eras, especially differnces between use of Hazel GRove and Hartford Junctions.

At Altrincham up trains arriving @ P3 report wrong platform as do down trains arriving @ P4.

Last edited: 12/03/2021 at 16:24 by hotwellian
Reason: typos

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 13/03/2021 at 04:47 #137773
pedroathome
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hotwellian in post 137759 said:
Hi,

Firtsly, thank you to developers and testers for this sim, which I find fascinating, especially the differences in traffic between eras, especially differnces between use of Hazel GRove and Hartford Junctions.

At Altrincham up trains arriving @ P3 report wrong platform as do down trains arriving @ P4.
Please could you confirm which era you're in, and I'll happily take a look

James

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 13/03/2021 at 15:10 #137780
hotwellian
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I was running the 1977 timetable, pre 1991 era
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 13/03/2021 at 18:31 #137793
pedroathome
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Logged as Mantis # 33314, which will be ready for an update. As an aside, I note that I'd managed to swap around Platform 3 and 4 in data, which should explain the issue

James

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