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Premature route setting from sidings

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Premature route setting from sidings 04/07/2020 at 08:24 #128974
Afterbrunel
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Running Piccadilly with ARS operative, there is a problem with trains leaving siding areas, chiefly Longsight; the route is set instantly when the train is reported even if there is still 10 minutes to it moving. This often leads to main line moves being blocked. I can't see a way of preventing that except for disabling all the local ARS interlockings, which sort of defeats the object of ARS. The route setting is instantaneous, so even if you are looking at that part of the layout, you can't intervene in time. Cancelling the route gets a black mark for a signal reversion.
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Premature route setting from sidings 04/07/2020 at 08:46 #128980
njimiller
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For troublesome examples like that when ARS is premature, I just put reminders on the individual signals involved and briefly remove when I’m happy for the route to be set.
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Premature route setting from sidings 04/07/2020 at 20:08 #129019
UKTrainMan
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Would suggest considering going into F3 Options » ARS tab and turning off (unticking) Auto routesetting for Class 5 trains, and possibly also Class 3 trains too.
Last edited: 04/07/2020 at 20:20 by UKTrainMan
Reason: None given

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Premature route setting from sidings 04/07/2020 at 20:48 #129026
postal
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Afterbrunel in post 128974 said:
Running Piccadilly with ARS operative, there is a problem with trains leaving siding areas, chiefly Longsight; the route is set instantly when the train is reported even if there is still 10 minutes to it moving. This often leads to main line moves being blocked. I can't see a way of preventing that except for disabling all the local ARS interlockings, which sort of defeats the object of ARS. The route setting is instantaneous, so even if you are looking at that part of the layout, you can't intervene in time. Cancelling the route gets a black mark for a signal reversion.
Could it be because the ARS only reads trains which are present in the sim i.e. if a train is still to enter but due in front the ARS has no knowledge of that train? It then reads the situation as it sees it at that moment, works out that it will not cause any delays to other trains it can see by moving the ECS on and thus sets the route.

It can also happen if there is a junction where there are conflicting moves near the fringe of the sim with the adjacent area. The ARS will set a route which then conflicts with a train which has not yet entered. You can see that happen at Uddingston Jn on the Motherwell sim where the ARS will set the route for a train from Bellshill towards Newton then one of the Fasts from Glasgow enters at Newton which should have priority and is held up as the local from Bellshill clears. Another reminder that the ARS is the signaller's helper not the signaller's replacement.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Premature route setting from sidings 04/07/2020 at 21:43 #129035
bugsy
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UKTrainMan in post 129019 said:
Would suggest considering going into F3 Options » ARS tab and turning off (unticking) Auto routesetting for Class 5 trains, and possibly also Class 3 trains too.
Would this be advisory/necessary for any Piccadilly sim with ARS?

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
Last edited: 04/07/2020 at 21:43 by bugsy
Reason: None given

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Premature route setting from sidings 04/07/2020 at 21:54 #129038
Steamer
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Mantis #30994 raised for ARS firing early.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Premature route setting from sidings 04/07/2020 at 21:55 #129039
headshot119
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bugsy in post 129035 said:
UKTrainMan in post 129019 said:
Would suggest considering going into F3 Options » ARS tab and turning off (unticking) Auto routesetting for Class 5 trains, and possibly also Class 3 trains too.
Would this be advisory/necessary for any Piccadilly sim with ARS?
No I wouldn't advise it, as ARS would then not set any routes for class 3 or 5 trains.

"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Premature route setting from sidings 04/07/2020 at 22:02 #129040
UKTrainMan
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bugsy in post 129035 said:
UKTrainMan in post 129019 said:
Would suggest considering going into F3 Options » ARS tab and turning off (unticking) Auto routesetting for Class 5 trains, and possibly also Class 3 trains too.
Would this be advisory/necessary for any Piccadilly sim with ARS?
That I can't be sure of - admittedly I don't yet have Piccadilly and therefore haven't yet played it - but if ARS is causing an issue with prematurely routing Class 5 trains then rather than turning off one or possibly more ARS area(s) I'd definitely recommend manually routing them. Gives you more control over them. Do however have to remember that turning off auto routesetting for one or more class(es) of trains would be carried across to other simulations as it is a 'universal' F3 option across all simulations featuring ARS.

Or alternatively, as per the suggestion above, using reminders on signals works too.

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Premature route setting from sidings 04/07/2020 at 22:11 #129042
bugsy
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UKTrainMan in post 129040 said:
bugsy in post 129035 said:
UKTrainMan in post 129019 said:
Would suggest considering going into F3 Options » ARS tab and turning off (unticking) Auto routesetting for Class 5 trains, and possibly also Class 3 trains too.
Would this be advisory/necessary for any Piccadilly sim with ARS?
That I can't be sure of - admittedly I don't yet have Piccadilly and therefore haven't yet played it - but if ARS is causing an issue with prematurely routing Class 5 trains then rather than turning off one or possibly more ARS area(s) I'd definitely recommend manually routing them. Gives you more control over them. Do however have to remember that turning off auto routesetting for one or more class(es) of trains would be carried across to other simulations as it is a 'universal' F3 option across all simulations featuring ARS.

Or alternatively, as per the suggestion above, using reminders on signals works too.
I haven't played the Piccadilly sim recently and I'm playing a Peterborough sim at the moment in which you can turn off individual ARS areas. Does anyone know if this can be done in the Piccadilly sim. If so, I could use it as an alternative method.

Edit: No need to answer this question. I'll find out when I play it won't I?

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
Last edited: 04/07/2020 at 22:13 by bugsy
Reason: Added text

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Premature route setting from sidings 04/07/2020 at 22:30 #129045
Steamer
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Afterbrunel said:
I can't see a way of preventing that except for disabling all the local ARS interlockings, which sort of defeats the object of ARS
While I'd agree that putting reminders on the depot exit signals as suggested above is the best work-around to the problem, you only need to disable sub-area LNGUG to stop routes being set out of the depot- though ARS also won't set routes onto the Up/Down Goods from the Piccadilly direction.

bugsy in post 129042 said:

I haven't played the Piccadilly sim recently and I'm playing a Peterborough sim at the moment in which you can turn off individual ARS areas. Does anyone know if this can be done in the Piccadilly sim. If so, I could use it as an alternative method.
ARS is always divided into sub-areas.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 04/07/2020 at 22:30 by Steamer
Reason: None given

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Premature route setting from sidings 05/07/2020 at 12:55 #129067
bugsy
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Steamer in post 129045 said:
Afterbrunel said:
I can't see a way of preventing that except for disabling all the local ARS interlockings, which sort of defeats the object of ARS
While I'd agree that putting reminders on the depot exit signals as suggested above is the best work-around to the problem, you only need to disable sub-area LNGUG to stop routes being set out of the depot- though ARS also won't set routes onto the Up/Down Goods from the Piccadilly direction.

bugsy in post 129042 said:

I haven't played the Piccadilly sim recently and I'm playing a Peterborough sim at the moment in which you can turn off individual ARS areas. Does anyone know if this can be done in the Piccadilly sim. If so, I could use it as an alternative method.
ARS is always divided into sub-areas.
Thought that might be the case. I would have found that out when I next start the Piccadilly sim anyway, so it was really a pointless question

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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Premature route setting from sidings 13/07/2020 at 10:12 #129538
clive
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2134 posts
postal in post 129026 said:
Afterbrunel in post 128974 said:
Running Piccadilly with ARS operative, there is a problem with trains leaving siding areas, chiefly Longsight; the route is set instantly when the train is reported even if there is still 10 minutes to it moving. This often leads to main line moves being blocked. I can't see a way of preventing that except for disabling all the local ARS interlockings, which sort of defeats the object of ARS. The route setting is instantaneous, so even if you are looking at that part of the layout, you can't intervene in time. Cancelling the route gets a black mark for a signal reversion.
Could it be because the ARS only reads trains which are present in the sim i.e. if a train is still to enter but due in front the ARS has no knowledge of that train? It then reads the situation as it sees it at that moment, works out that it will not cause any delays to other trains it can see by moving the ECS on and thus sets the route.
Exactly the same problem happened in HKE during development: ARS set the route for train A at (IIRC) Sha Tin even though train B was supposed to pass it there, because it could see A while B hadn't come out of the depot yet. I had to fix it by making Sha Tin a "wait for time" location, since it was clearly going to be a common situation.

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