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Repeated Messages ad infinitum.......

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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 08/07/2020 at 21:40 #129316
VInce
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Hi all,

After another problem with trains in the West Croydon area off sim, I removed train 3W90 from the sim at signal T39 which, I presume off sim,on the approach to Wallington.

Immediately at 14:37:38 the message "ARS subarea(s) cancelled due to route cancel" showed in the message window.
This message is then repeated every second.

Pausing and re-starting does not stop the message, only stopping the sim and restarting will stop it.

It happens when a train is removed from the sim when it is in the approach berth approaching Wallington

Vince

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I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
Last edited: 08/07/2020 at 21:41 by VInce
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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 09:47 #129354
VInce
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Sorry to bump this one up the lust.

Is it worth a mantis entry?

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 09:57 #129355
Stephen Fulcher
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It might be once someone has had the chance to take a look at it, which overnight it’s not totally surprising nobody has yet.
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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 10:28 #129356
JamesN
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It’s difficult to say from a screenshot (why oh why can’t we have a save?) - but I suspect it was removing the train that caused the problem.

There are sim-controlled signals in the black hole between Selhurst and West Croydon, and the sim appears to have gotten itself into a loop of setting and cancelling the route for the train that you removed. Again without a save it’s impossible to test to be certain but I’m fairly sure it should sort itself out the next time you send a through train down there.

If I can confirm that’s the issue I’ll raise a ticket to see if it can be tweaked to better handle situations like this.

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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 13:30 #129365
y10g9
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VInce in post 129354 said:
Sorry to bump this one up the lust.

Is it worth a mantis entry?

Vince
Its helps if you're not so impatient. You posted this at 2140 last night, and just over 12 hours later your complaining that no one has looked at it.
I for 1 can tell you exactly where I was for those hours. Lets see. I went to bed at 2030 so was fast asleep when you posted, my alarms went of at 0245 this morning, i got out of bed at 0300, got ready for work including forcing myself to eat breakfast at 0315 cause I need to eat before I go. Leave the home at 0330 and start picking other people's shopping at 0400. 20,000 steps later and having done my own weekly shop, I get home at 1300. Having not eaten a meal since 0330 my first priority is lunch. I have only then come to sit at my laptop to start looking through the forum.

All the testers and devs, as surprising as this may sound, have jobs and lives outside of Simsig. Quite a few of us are shift workers with work patterns that vary week to week so the fact you got an answer off someone at 1 in the morning 1 week doesn't mean that person will be online at 1 in the morning the next week.

And finally, as always. It is Always helpful to have a save game provided. if they say a picture speaks a thousand words, then a save game probably speaks a million. There are bugs that have been found at 1 end of the sim that have been caused by say a track circuit at the other end. Sometimes as simple as the condition for signal to be clear should require T123 to be clear, but a mistype of T213 in the instructions can cause the signal to revert back. Without a save to look at, we can try everything immediately obvious, but we don't have a game in the same condition as you do. This is why we always ask for a save game.

As JamesN has suggested, It looks likely to have happened because you have deleted a train that was in the section of off sim routing. this Was there a reason for you to delete this train?


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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 14:41 #129372
VInce
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Well I got a response - sorry to be a pain in the **** to you all. I won't bother next time. Forget I ever mentioned it.

Oh, and by the way I know very well it was removing the train that caused it - I said so, well done to the Sherlock Holmes that worked that one out.

You carry on and discuss what colour your trainlist should be - sorry to interrupt the really important stuff.

Oh - and please feel free to delete the thread and particulalrly this message.

I'll give it 10 minutes before it disappears.

Vince.


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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 14:44 #129373
JamesN
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VInce in post 129372 said:
Well I got a response - sorry to be a pain in the **** to you all. I won't bother next time. Forget I ever mentioned it.

Oh, and by the way I know very well it was removing the train that caused it - I said so, well done to the Sherlock Holmes that worked that one out.

You carry on and discuss what colour your trainlist should be - sorry to interrupt the really important stuff.

Oh - and please feel free to delete the thread and particulalrly this message.

I'll give it 10 minutes before it disappears.

Vince.
Vince please don’t let the others posts put you off - if you’ve got a save I’ll be happy to look into the matter as you are correct - removing a train shouldn’t result in an unrecoverable situation.

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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 15:54 #129375
VInce
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James,

Thank you but I will not be talked to like I'm an idiot. I've been around far too long for that and probably have a lot more experience of these matters than many on here do.

I explained what I did and what the system response was. That is why I didn't attach a save. I didn't need to be told that it was me that caused it by removing a train, I already knew that and that's what I said. It doesn't matter why I removed it. The system should not respond in that way. That's the issue, not why I removed it.

A save was not ncessary to investigate what is an apparently repeatable problem.

Geoff has said on many occasions that the system should catch things like this and not present, as you say, and unrecoverable situation.

So if a save is that important here is one. I spell out the instructions line by line since that's how people spoke to me.

When loaded,paused, you will find train 2B62 in the approach berth at Wallington.

1) Load the sim, paused

2) Open the message window to a large size.

3) Start the sim.

4) Remove 2B62 from the sim.

4) Watch what happens in the message window.

I hope that's clear enough for those that need this information.



Vince

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I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 17:34 #129381
headshot119
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Noted on Mantis #31040.

Moderator Note - We've received several reports regarding posts in this thread, I've decided to leave all the posts in full. We (The testers and developers) do between us read all of the posts on the forum, and log issues reported on Mantis where appropriate.

It's always easier if a save is available, as it allows us to see the full state of the simulation, including parts the end user can't see, to allow us to properly investigate and rectify any issues. Sometimes while it can look like an issue is easily reproduceable the data in a save helps us narrow things down just that little bit further.

"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 17:39 #129384
JamesN
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VInce in post 129375 said:
James,

Thank you but I will not be talked to like I'm an idiot. I've been around far too long for that and probably have a lot more experience of these matters than many on here do.

I explained what I did and what the system response was. That is why I didn't attach a save. I didn't need to be told that it was me that caused it by removing a train, I already knew that and that's what I said. It doesn't matter why I removed it. The system should not respond in that way. That's the issue, not why I removed it.

A save was not ncessary to investigate what is an apparently repeatable problem.

Geoff has said on many occasions that the system should catch things like this and not present, as you say, and unrecoverable situation.

So if a save is that important here is one. I spell out the instructions line by line since that's how people spoke to me.

When loaded,paused, you will find train 2B62 in the approach berth at Wallington.

1) Load the sim, paused

2) Open the message window to a large size.

3) Start the sim.

4) Remove 2B62 from the sim.

4) Watch what happens in the message window.

I hope that's clear enough for those that need this information.



Vince
Thanks for that Vince

I won't speak for others, but first I'll make my apologies if you felt my comments were over the line at all - the "why oh why..." comment was over-dramatised tongue in cheek, but I can see how it could have been misconstrued. It certainly wasn't my intention to talk to you like an idiot, and I'm truly sorry if you felt that way.

To the matter at hand - I can confirm exactly what I think was happening underneath is happening, so it has been raised on mantis as #31040

To explain - when you remove the train it removes the physical train, and clears track circuits etc - but as you may see with removing a train within the player-controlled bit of the sim, it doesn't touch the TD. So ARS (which is permanently turned on at West Croydon/Gloucester Road off-sim) sees a TD that needs a route setting and sets it, and then the bit of code kicks in that cancels the route because there isn't actually a train approaching. You get the repeated message because it turns off the hidden ARS subarea roundel for that off-sim permanently on ARS, which resets itself immediately then it sets the route again and so on. What isn't being caught is the removal of the TD - it's just a situation that I suspect the developer of the sim didn't quite imagine occurring - the fix shouldn't be too arduous, but obviously it's not my sim to make that judgement.

I can also confirm that when the next train runs through the area it will "cure" the repeated message, as long as no other trains are removed! (and if you do have to again, then it'll be the same story - running a train through will cure the messages.

If you'll hear my reasoning - the reason we insist on a save is so that we can run the exact situation you are experiencing through different debugging tools - the biggest/clues evidence are often not stuff you can see while running the simulation, but info that the debugging tools spit out about the state of the sim in the save. Even replication from afresh can produce slightly different results - either because the test/development version of the simulation is newer, or shortcuts or different methods of setup that the replicator is using vs the reporter.

EDIT for full disclosure:- headshot119 posted while I was typing, I wasn't attempting a pile-on.

Last edited: 09/07/2020 at 17:43 by JamesN
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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 18:00 #129386
GeoffM
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Actually it's not ad infinitum: it's 2 minutes (the approach locking timeout).

But a fix will be produced shortly. We do try to cover cases where a user does unexpected things in off-screen areas like removing a train but there has to be a certain amount of caveat emptor with "hand of god" type of actions, not including this particular issue. Things like berths off-screen remaining occupied, for example.

All, please play nicely on the forum.

SimSig Boss
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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 18:30 #129390
agilchrist
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It is a very good point Geoff has made, if you use the hand of god tools you should not always expect the sim to recover, in normal operation it should run without issues.

Regarding the earlier posts, I feel the initial impatience to get a reply managed to get somebody aggravated and I do think that there is little realisation from many Simsig players that many of us involved with development, testing and TT writing work normal jobs, we do this in our spare time, for the fun of it and we do not get compensated for it

The reality is that if you are posting a question in the forum you can not expect a response time which is akin to paid support.
Be reasonable in the expectations, this is supposed to be a fun past time.

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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 09/07/2020 at 21:34 #129398
GeoffM
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V1.9 now available.
SimSig Boss
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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 12/07/2020 at 17:33 #129503
KymriskaDraken
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agilchrist in post 129390 said:

The reality is that if you are posting a question in the forum you can not expect a response time which is akin to paid support.
Be reasonable in the expectations, this is supposed to be a fun past time.
A fun past time it may be, but users have paid for the software and have an expectation that it will run properly, and that bugs should be fixed in a timely manner.

Kev

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Repeated Messages ad infinitum....... 12/07/2020 at 17:42 #129505
headshot119
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Moderator note - thread locked before it continues in circles.

Vince if you need the thread reopening to add anything drop me a PM and I'll be happy to reopen it for you.

"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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