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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley

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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 16:54 #130104
bugsy
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I’ve probably misunderstood what is happening here but I have 2B14 routed into platform 17 at Waverley. The platform is already occupied by 1B42 but as there is permissive working at all platforms, why has the driver of 2B14 phoning to say that he is waiting at a red signal? Shouldn’t the subsidiary aspect of signal E486 clear automatically and allow the train to proceed? I know that they both fit into the platform.

If you find this question annoying, please don’t bite my head off, just ignore it.


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Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:07 #130106
jc92
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You need to operate the track circuit overide switch (the red button at the buffer stops) in order to release the permissive route. Its a form of confirmation.
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:27 #130107
Dick
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Hmm, it cleared for me yesterday without operating the track circuit override.
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:41 #130109
bugsy
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jc92 in post 130106 said:
You need to operate the track circuit overide switch (the red button at the buffer stops) in order to release the permissive route. Its a form of confirmation.
Right. Thanks for your swift response.
I can see the orange roundel and also several others. Don't recall having to use them on the .exe version although they are on there. Perhaps I just talked them past the signal as I did in this case, which is probably not the way to do it. Could you do this in reality or would the TC overide need to be used?

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:44 #130110
Hap
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The call on route sets up automatically in real life.
HAP
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:45 #130111
bugsy
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Do they all do that?
Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:45 #130112
headshot119
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bugsy in post 130109 said:
jc92 in post 130106 said:
You need to operate the track circuit overide switch (the red button at the buffer stops) in order to release the permissive route. Its a form of confirmation.
Right. Thanks for your swift response.
I can see the orange roundel and also several others. Don't recall having to use them on the .exe version although they are on there. Perhaps I just talked them past the signal as I did in this case, which is probably not the way to do it. Could you do this in reality or would the TC overide need to be used?
You'd be having a tea and no biscuits meeting if you started talking passed signals without good reason. And there are only 15 goods reasons.

"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:47 #130113
bugsy
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headshot119 in post 130112 said:
bugsy in post 130109 said:
jc92 in post 130106 said:
You need to operate the track circuit overide switch (the red button at the buffer stops) in order to release the permissive route. Its a form of confirmation.
Right. Thanks for your swift response.
I can see the orange roundel and also several others. Don't recall having to use them on the .exe version although they are on there. Perhaps I just talked them past the signal as I did in this case, which is probably not the way to do it. Could you do this in reality or would the TC overide need to be used?
You'd be having a tea and no biscuits meeting if you started talking passed signals without good reason. And there are only 15 goods reasons.
Mmm.......... Had a feeling that I shouldn't have done it that way.

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:47 #130114
Hap
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Seems you have to operate the override when ARS is off. when ARS is on, it sets.
HAP
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:49 #130115
bugsy
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Hap in post 130114 said:
Seems you have to operate the override when ARS is off. when ARS is on, it sets.
Thanks for explaining that. Now know what to do in future

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:53 #130116
Dick
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I had ARS off and didn't need to operate the override.
Last edited: 29/07/2020 at 17:54 by Dick
Reason: None given

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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 17:57 #130117
JamesN
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Dick in post 130116 said:
I had ARS off and didn't need to operate the override.
Have you got a save showing this Dick?

That wouldn't be correct behaviour by my reading of how it should work?

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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 18:11 #130118
Dick
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The only save I have is just a couple of minutes too late but it does show the override isn't operated.
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 18:36 #130119
JamesN
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Dick in post 130118 said:
The only save I have is just a couple of minutes too late but it does show the override isn't operated.
Yeah something definitely amiss there, as you're correct I can get call-on without override operated in your attached save, despite ARS being set to OFF, but per Hap's post above I understood intended behaviour was overrides required with ARS OFF but not required with ARS ON.

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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 19:06 #130122
Hap
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Dick in post 130118 said:
The only save I have is just a couple of minutes too late but it does show the override isn't operated.
So, The settings in your save is ARS off and TORR on with ACI checked. So when setting the route, the call on clears
Bugsy's settings are ARS on, TORR on and selected ARS off at Edinburgh (and some other areas)
With the ARS sub route off then the call on doesn't clear. It will clear when ARS is turned back on.
It's also impossible to get the Overrides to work. Mantis #25063 applies.

HAP
Last edited: 29/07/2020 at 19:16 by Hap
Reason: None given

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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 19:58 #130126
ajax103
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headshot119 in post 130112 said:
bugsy in post 130109 said:
jc92 in post 130106 said:
You need to operate the track circuit overide switch (the red button at the buffer stops) in order to release the permissive route. Its a form of confirmation.
Right. Thanks for your swift response.
I can see the orange roundel and also several others. Don't recall having to use them on the .exe version although they are on there. Perhaps I just talked them past the signal as I did in this case, which is probably not the way to do it. Could you do this in reality or would the TC overide need to be used?
You'd be having a tea and no biscuits meeting if you started talking passed signals without good reason. And there are only 15 goods reasons.
What would the reasons be as I can't think of 15, one or two maybe but not 15!

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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 20:03 #130127
Dick
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FYI
E484 also clears for 5B01 without operating TC override

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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 20:08 #130129
bugsy
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Hap in post 130122 said:
Dick in post 130118 said:
The only save I have is just a couple of minutes too late but it does show the override isn't operated.

Bugsy's settings are ARS on, TORR on and selected ARS off at Edinburgh (and some other areas)
If I've got TORR on why are some routes at Waverley not clearing behind a train? Is it because I've turned ARS off at Waverley? It's happened twice now. The first time was with 2B14 and now again with 0B16 which has been sitting at Carlton tunnel reverse for 4 minutes. Is there a setting which I have overlooked?


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Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 21:14 #130132
Peter Bennet
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It's because the signals are last wheel replacement and as there are still wheels there (on the train that's been left behind) the route needs to be manually pulled.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 21:29 #130133
bugsy
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Peter Bennet in post 130132 said:
It's because the signals are last wheel replacement and as there are still wheels there (on the train that's been left behind) the route needs to be manually pulled.

Peter
Thanks for the explanation, I'll bear that in mind.

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 21:31 #130134
JamesN
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Peter Bennet in post 130132 said:
It's because the signals are last wheel replacement and as there are still wheels there (on the train that's been left behind) the route needs to be manually pulled.

Peter
I can't say I've ever seen last wheel route replacement, last wheel signal replacement is far, far more common in situations as these and doesn't exhibit the behaviour shown - although I profess I don't know the specifics for Edinburgh...

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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 21:55 #130136
bugsy
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Do these comments also apply to the situation with 2B14 (mentioned in my original post above with a save attached) where I had to clear the route from signal E486 into platform 17 as it didn’t release automatically?
Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 21:59 #130138
GeoffM
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JamesN in post 130134 said:
Peter Bennet in post 130132 said:
It's because the signals are last wheel replacement and as there are still wheels there (on the train that's been left behind) the route needs to be manually pulled.

Peter
I can't say I've ever seen last wheel route replacement, last wheel signal replacement is far, far more common in situations as these and doesn't exhibit the behaviour shown - although I profess I don't know the specifics for Edinburgh...
Um... that's not what Peter said. I'm not sure about the specifics of Peter's last phrase but the first part is correct.

Talking generally, there are a lot of real world situations where, even with TORR, the signaller still has to pull a route. The worst type of cases include those with single-TC routes combined with last wheel replacement and dividing trains.

SimSig Boss
Last edited: 29/07/2020 at 22:01 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 22:08 #130141
Hap
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bugsy in post 130136 said:
Do these comments also apply to the situation with 2B14 (mentioned in my original post above with a save attached) where I had to clear the route from signal E486 into platform 17 as it didn’t release automatically?
That'll be because you talked him passed the signal. Whether it's right behaviour or not for this situation I don't know. But it doesn't happen if the route was cleared.

HAP
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2B14 and permissive working at Waverley 29/07/2020 at 22:27 #130144
Peter Bennet
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What I meant was I've set the LWR=T in the data and my explanation was based on interpreting what appears to be the result.

On the other matter, the ARS sub-areas default to on when ARS is not enabled and are read as such.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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