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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised

You are here: Home > Forum > Wishlist > Features wish list > Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised

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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 31/08/2020 at 18:07 #131148
DavidSplett
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Would there be any scope to add a feature that allows the signaller to advise a driver not to move pending a signal being restored to danger?

This feature would certainly be useful during incidents, or when a signal has been cleared too early.

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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 31/08/2020 at 18:58 #131151
geswedey
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DavidSplett in post 131148 said:
Would there be any scope to add a feature that allows the signaller to advise a driver not to move pending a signal being restored to danger?

This feature would certainly be useful during incidents, or when a signal has been cleared too early.
Agreed as it does happen in real life, Driver to signaller for other than train fault issues would also be useful as that can also happen if trts is operated in error.

Glyn Calvert ACIRO
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 31/08/2020 at 21:24 #131154
ajax103
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Personally I think if it was possible then as we can right click on any train to give it a command in F2/the train list such as reverse direction etc then could we not right click to give command eg signal will be replaced or similar?

Eg at the moment a driver can ring up to say they have a fault with the train and will the signal be put back but what if the signaller either set the wrong route by misreading the workings or set a route ahead of TRTS being given and that train ends up being delayed?

As a example, I had a train booked to depart Victoria Central at 00:02 last night but it was delayed for no advertised reason to 00:05 which with the route set, blocked a inward working that I could have had platformed in the time I had.

So is the idea actually feasible?

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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 00:32 #131157
DavidSplett
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ajax103 in post 131154 said:
Personally I think if it was possible then as we can right click on any train to give it a command in F2/the train list such as reverse direction etc then could we not right click to give command eg signal will be replaced or similar?

Eg at the moment a driver can ring up to say they have a fault with the train and will the signal be put back but what if the signaller either set the wrong route by misreading the workings or set a route ahead of TRTS being given and that train ends up being delayed?

As a example, I had a train booked to depart Victoria Central at 00:02 last night but it was delayed for no advertised reason to 00:05 which with the route set, blocked a inward working that I could have had platformed in the time I had.

So is the idea actually feasible?
I was thinking along the lines of an option in the F2 train list, which would only work when the train is not moving, and perhaps a small time delay to account for what would normally be a radio call to the driver, followed by a message box along the lines of what we get when a timetable is modified, along the lines of “Driver of 2K30 understands signal is about to be replaced and confirms he will not move whilst the signal is replaced”.

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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 00:34 #131158
GeoffM
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Added to Mantis 31454. This would be via phone call, not F2. Note that it is up to the driver to answer the phone and they're not supposed to do that if doing something critical, like braking for a red signal or station. So sometimes they may not answer for a few minutes.
SimSig Boss
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 01:39 #131159
DavidSplett
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GeoffM in post 131158 said:
Added to Mantis 31454. This would be via phone call, not F2. Note that it is up to the driver to answer the phone and they're not supposed to do that if doing something critical, like braking for a red signal or station. So sometimes they may not answer for a few minutes.
Thanks for taking this up.

That’s roughly what I was thinking. Certainly needs to be a process which takes a bit of time, so can’t just be done at the drop of a hat.

Perhaps, if feasible, it might be made so it doesn’t work (perhaps on a semi random basis) if for example the train is more than a 2-3 minutes before departure time, as in that situation often the driver wouldn’t be present in the cab?

I’m thinking of real life where in reality it would be a case of “damn we need to put that signal back, can we get hold of the driver?”. Obviously away from stations the scenario of driver being out of contact shouldn’t arise.

Last edited: 01/09/2020 at 01:41 by DavidSplett
Reason: None given

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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 09:35 #131166
kbarber
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DavidSplett in post 131159 said:
GeoffM in post 131158 said:
Added to Mantis 31454. This would be via phone call, not F2. Note that it is up to the driver to answer the phone and they're not supposed to do that if doing something critical, like braking for a red signal or station. So sometimes they may not answer for a few minutes.
Thanks for taking this up.

That’s roughly what I was thinking. Certainly needs to be a process which takes a bit of time, so can’t just be done at the drop of a hat.

Perhaps, if feasible, it might be made so it doesn’t work (perhaps on a semi random basis) if for example the train is more than a 2-3 minutes before departure time, as in that situation often the driver wouldn’t be present in the cab?

I’m thinking of real life where in reality it would be a case of “damn we need to put that signal back, can we get hold of the driver?”. Obviously away from stations the scenario of driver being out of contact shouldn’t arise.
Of course, if there's no driver in the cab it should be possible for station staff to confirm that; same then applies as if driver has acknowledged the signal going back.

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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 10:35 #131171
postal
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GeoffM in post 131158 said:
Added to Mantis 31454. This would be via phone call, not F2. Note that it is up to the driver to answer the phone and they're not supposed to do that if doing something critical, like braking for a red signal or station. So sometimes they may not answer for a few minutes.
The cheeky ask is that the TT writer has an option to disable this. There are lots of user-written TTs out there set in eras when any form of in-cab communication would be inappropriate.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 11:53 #131175
9pN1SEAp
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postal in post 131171 said:
The cheeky ask is that the TT writer has an option to disable this. There are lots of user-written TTs out there set in eras when any form of in-cab communication would be inappropriate.
Next you'll be wanting drivers encountering ACoA to use their CSR, instead of always jumping out the cab to find SPT!

Jamie S (JAMS)
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 15:02 #131187
Splodge
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GeoffM in post 131158 said:
Added to Mantis 31454. This would be via phone call, not F2. Note that it is up to the driver to answer the phone and they're not supposed to do that if doing something critical, like braking for a red signal or station. So sometimes they may not answer for a few minutes.
At my TOC we never answer GSMR on the move; though the signaller can make a broadcast to us or send a 'Contact Signaller' text message which we would respond to at the next practical opportunity - signallers are aware of the policy so generally send the message when they know we're stationary, or very close to being!

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 16:24 #131194
headshot119
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Splodge in post 131187 said:
GeoffM in post 131158 said:
Added to Mantis 31454. This would be via phone call, not F2. Note that it is up to the driver to answer the phone and they're not supposed to do that if doing something critical, like braking for a red signal or station. So sometimes they may not answer for a few minutes.
At my TOC we never answer GSMR on the move; though the signaller can make a broadcast to us or send a 'Contact Signaller' text message which we would respond to at the next practical opportunity - signallers are aware of the policy so generally send the message when they know we're stationary, or very close to being!
You get no choice if I make an urgent call to you, or a REC call

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 16:48 #131195
Splodge
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Yeah, GSMR auto-answers after two rings so naturally you can get hold of us that way - but we aren't supposed to be conversing using it. I'm yet to receive any of the 'berth-triggered' broadcasts - though as great as they sound in the notices, I suspect they may not be as easy to set up!
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 17:33 #131196
Steamer
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Just to note that if you've pulled off way too early (fairly sure it's 10 minutes before departure time), you can replace the signal without an ACOA penalty.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 17:48 #131200
geswedey
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Can't remember which sim it was but recently I returned a signal to danger immediately I realised I had cleared a route 30 mins before departure and received a COA report.

Glyn

Glyn Calvert ACIRO
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 01/09/2020 at 22:02 #131209
ajax103
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GeoffM in post 131158 said:
Added to Mantis 31454. This would be via phone call, not F2. Note that it is up to the driver to answer the phone and they're not supposed to do that if doing something critical, like braking for a red signal or station. So sometimes they may not answer for a few minutes.
I think it also depends if there's a driver in the cab by this I mean if you have a train sat in the platform and the signaller needs to out the route back for any reason then 1. They need to contact the driver or 2. In case of a manned station, they would ring the person in charge to ask if there was a driver in the cab and if not then the signal could be put back.

I talk of experience when I say this because a number of times when I was a dispatcher, I would have the signaller call me to confirm if there was a driver in the cab or not before they put the signal back.

So yes a delay of 2 to 3 minutes I would have be enough?

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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 02/09/2020 at 04:14 #131213
GeoffM
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Steamer in post 131196 said:
Just to note that if you've pulled off way too early (fairly sure it's 10 minutes before departure time), you can replace the signal without an ACOA penalty.
That's correct (just spotted it in the code while looking for something else).

SimSig Boss
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 02/09/2020 at 14:32 #131226
Albert
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Side note: at the moment, cancelling a route for a train that is waiting for a join also generates an ACOA.
AJP in games
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 02/09/2020 at 15:09 #131227
DriverCurran
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This I would expect as a driver is required at what will be the leading end of the combined train as part of the attachment process, even if it is to receive the information that the train is now coupled.

Paul

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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 02/09/2020 at 17:23 #131232
Albert
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You could be right - the case I just had was a run-around, so presumably the TT author did a DF instead of a DEF by mistake and SimSig is not able to determine the direction where the joining train is coming from (in this case, the same direction as the signal I cancelled.)
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 02/09/2020 at 23:57 #131248
Late Turn
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DriverCurran in post 131227 said:
This I would expect as a driver is required at what will be the leading end of the combined train as part of the attachment process, even if it is to receive the information that the train is now coupled.

Paul

That certainly isn’t the case on our (admittedly ancient) traction Paul - I’m regularly still making tea in the messroom whilst the train that I’m to work forward has a portion attached. On most jobs I think we’re either booked to relieve the shunt driver doing the attachment or join the unit that they’ve previously left, but very rarely timed to get to the train more than five minutes before departure.

More generally, though, I’d expect the signalman to not rely on the departure time being later but instead to ask platform staff to check whether there’s a driver regardless of the time to booked departure.

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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 03/09/2020 at 09:40 #131258
DriverCurran
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Hmm interesting, I know with the 400 series units once the man in rear had banged them together he was meant to give 3-3 on the buzzer and advise you that the train was together and you could now put your master key on.

With the electrostar units the man at the front needs to make a safey announcement when the rear part arrives and then physically hit the door cloor button and remove his master key before the bit comes on the rear.

Paul

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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 05/09/2020 at 14:30 #131332
Late Turn
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I suspect the difference might be down to the combination of a more intensive service and longer trains on the Southern? Our attachments invariably involve an empty portion brought up from the sidings rather than a second portion arriving in service, and the through service generally has at least ten minutes’ dwell time. The driver doing the attachment proves continuity once coupled, and the forward driver then effectively relieves him. If there’s less time available, then it’d make sense for the forward driver to already be installed in the leading cab ready to key in as quickly as possible once they’ve been put together. Always interesting to hear how it’s done elsewhere!
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Ability to return signals to danger without being penalised 05/09/2020 at 15:42 #131333
DriverCurran
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Indeed it is interesting to see how it is done in other places.
You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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