Upcoming Games


Full list
Add a game

Upcoming Events

No events to display

We are not planning any more in-person events until the COVID-19 situation has improved.

Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ)

You are here: Home > Forum > General > General questions, comments, and issues > Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ)

Page 1 of 1

Chester FAQ 02/11/2020 at 23:30 #133490
GeoffM
Avatar
5425 posts
jc92 in post 133481 said:
beast66606 in post 133474 said:
Minor Bug :

For trains approaching Hooton which are to take the Ellesmere Port line, the sim holds the junction signal (209) to red whereas it's a free signal and will clear (provided the line is clear obviously) to either yellow or green as appropriate. I thought this may have been changed on the prototype when Hooton box was abolished and Chester took control (I moved out of the area 10 years ago now) but I've just had my son check it out (as he was in the area anyway) and sure enough 209 signal cleared to green with the feather, even though the Ellesmere Port train was still back at Bromborough Rake.
Thanks. looking at the line speed through the station throat area, it makes sense that approach control would be redundant here. logged as 31920 for attention.
Speed is not the only factor in approach control. It is also used to give advance warning of a path to be taken at a junction, as in if the driver sees a green at the signal before the junction signal, and knows it's approach controlled for his/her expected route, then s/he can call it in before taking the route at line speed.

SimSig Boss
Last edited: 04/11/2020 at 17:47 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Chester FAQ 03/11/2020 at 17:46 #133496
clive
Avatar
2238 posts
GeoffM in post 133490 said:

Speed is not the only factor in approach control. It is also used to give advance warning of a path to be taken at a junction, as in if the driver sees a green at the signal before the junction signal, and knows it's approach controlled for his/her expected route, then s/he can call it in before taking the route at line speed.
Is it? I know that drivers make use of that property (and I know at least one driver who used the flashing greens approaching Peterborough for the same purpose). But has approach control ever been designed in just for this purpose when not needed to slow the train down for the junction? That would seem to me to train drivers to not brake for the yellows because they "know" it's just a reminder; c.f. Colwich. Wasn't that why PRIs were invented?

Last edited: 04/11/2020 at 17:47 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Chester FAQ 03/11/2020 at 19:00 #133499
GeoffM
Avatar
5425 posts
clive in post 133496 said:
GeoffM in post 133490 said:

Speed is not the only factor in approach control. It is also used to give advance warning of a path to be taken at a junction, as in if the driver sees a green at the signal before the junction signal, and knows it's approach controlled for his/her expected route, then s/he can call it in before taking the route at line speed.
Is it? I know that drivers make use of that property (and I know at least one driver who used the flashing greens approaching Peterborough for the same purpose). But has approach control ever been designed in just for this purpose when not needed to slow the train down for the junction? That would seem to me to train drivers to not brake for the yellows because they "know" it's just a reminder; c.f. Colwich. Wasn't that why PRIs were invented?
Yes, though I don't recall specific examples. You'd only use it where the approach control wouldn't make a difference to the speed of a train, eg where all directions off the junction signal are similar speeds, or where everything stops at a station immediately before.

PRIs didn't come about until... late 1990s?

SimSig Boss
Last edited: 04/11/2020 at 17:48 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Chester FAQ 04/11/2020 at 08:36 #133511
kbarber
Avatar
1538 posts
GeoffM in post 133499 said:
<snip>

PRIs didn't come about until... late 1990s?
I've a feeling it was early '90s, with the first example(s) in the Sandling area for the routes to Eurotunnel at Continental Junction (near Dollands Moor).

Last edited: 04/11/2020 at 17:48 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Chester FAQ 04/11/2020 at 12:31 #133518
clive
Avatar
2238 posts
I thought the first one was on the Down Fast, sorry, "Main", approaching Airport Junction. Then one on the Southern at Shortlands; I remember a member of staff telling me that I wasn't allowed to photograph it.
Last edited: 04/11/2020 at 17:48 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Chester FAQ 04/11/2020 at 13:40 #133519
JamesN
Avatar
1303 posts
AFAIK Clive is correct - Airport Jn on the GWML was the first installation, which will have been commissioned in 1997 when the first stump of the Heathrow branch opened to the the temporary “Heathrow Fast Train” station opened at what’s now Heathrow Tunnel Jn. As a fibre-optic installation the arrow is of a rather different form to more modern/contemporary installations, which tend to fill the entire aperture.

After that came the aforementioned Kent installations - approaching Shortlands Jn and approaching Dollands Moor - both were done as part of improvements in connection with phase 1 of High Speed 1 opening. Both will have been late 2002 / early 2003, but I can’t find record of an exact date unfortunately.

Since then they have sprouted up all over the place - West Coast Route Modernisation saw them installed approaching Rugby, Coventry and Birmingham International as a minimum. Various enhancements on the Great Western have used them; and a lot more I can’t recall immediately.

Last edited: 04/11/2020 at 17:49 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Chester FAQ 04/11/2020 at 16:14 #133524
Stephen Fulcher
Avatar
1659 posts
Chilterns Evergreen 3 used them in a few places
Last edited: 04/11/2020 at 17:49 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Chester FAQ 04/11/2020 at 16:35 #133526
DriverCurran
Avatar
583 posts
clive in post 133518 said:
I thought the first one was on the Down Fast, sorry, "Main", approaching Airport Junction.
Clive your first line description is perfectly correct, any decent naming convention will use fast and slow :p

Now time to grab coat and taxi before the Western clan lynch me ;-)

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
Last edited: 04/11/2020 at 17:49 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
The following user said thank you: jc92
Chester FAQ 04/11/2020 at 16:36 #133527
clive
Avatar
2238 posts
A key one was Colton Junction on the ECML, where a misrouted 91+Mk4s could find itself running out of wire at 125 mph, because there was no speed limit on either arm of the junction and the junction signal was hidden round a curve until it was far too late to stop at it.
Last edited: 04/11/2020 at 17:49 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 04/11/2020 at 18:18 #133529
Stephen Fulcher
Avatar
1659 posts
DriverCurran in post 133526 said:
clive in post 133518 said:
I thought the first one was on the Down Fast, sorry, "Main", approaching Airport Junction.
Clive your first line description is perfectly correct, any decent naming convention will use fast and slow :p

Now time to grab coat and taxi before the Western clan lynch me ;-)

Paul
No slow trains on the Western.

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 04/11/2020 at 20:10 #133553
clive
Avatar
2238 posts
DriverCurran in post 133526 said:

Now time to grab coat and taxi before the Western clan lynch me ;-)
It's all right: they can't cross the (Grub, Water, and Relief) border during lockdown.

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 04/11/2020 at 20:11 #133554
clive
Avatar
2238 posts
Stephen Fulcher in post 133529 said:
No slow trains on the Western.
You've clearly never ridden Looe to Liskeard.

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 04/11/2020 at 20:55 #133558
TUT
Avatar
314 posts
Online
clive in post 133554 said:
Stephen Fulcher in post 133529 said:
No slow trains on the Western.
You've clearly never ridden Looe to Liskeard.
That's to enable you to appreciate the view! They could go faster if they wanted...

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 04/11/2020 at 21:14 #133560
pedroathome
Avatar
699 posts
clive in post 133554 said:
Stephen Fulcher in post 133529 said:
No slow trains on the Western.
You've clearly never ridden Looe to Liskeard.
At the risk of a joke going down the toilet, you mean Liskeard to the Bog? There again, it would be a long trip from the bog to the tub.

(At this point in time, I'll get my coat, I think I left it by the door)

James

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 05/11/2020 at 10:39 #133571
bill_gensheet
Avatar
636 posts
clive in post 133527 said:
A key one was Colton Junction on the ECML, where a misrouted 91+Mk4s could find itself running out of wire at 125 mph, because there was no speed limit on either arm of the junction and the junction signal was hidden round a curve until it was far too late to stop at it.
One where advance junction indication did not exist and caused problems was the Shotts line prior to electrification.
The Edinburgh - Polmadie sleeper ECS ran out of wire at Midcalder once, while I had a small part of the Shotts line on a 390 at Holytown. Fortunately that was slow enough to stop with the rear pan still on the wire, so a reversal could be made to try again.

Bill

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 05/11/2020 at 10:51 #133572
jc92
Avatar
3208 posts
Online
clive in post 133527 said:
A key one was Colton Junction on the ECML, where a misrouted 91+Mk4s could find itself running out of wire at 125 mph, because there was no speed limit on either arm of the junction and the junction signal was hidden round a curve until it was far too late to stop at it.
I suppose it wasn't an issue when the panel and junction was commissioned as there were no wires, although its a missed opportunity where the IECC was commissioned.

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 05/11/2020 at 13:08 #133575
postal
Avatar
4527 posts
Online
jc92 in post 133572 said:
clive in post 133527 said:
A key one was Colton Junction on the ECML, where a misrouted 91+Mk4s could find itself running out of wire at 125 mph, because there was no speed limit on either arm of the junction and the junction signal was hidden round a curve until it was far too late to stop at it.
I suppose it wasn't an issue when the panel and junction was commissioned as there were no wires, although its a missed opportunity where the IECC was commissioned.
Although it might have given the driver a nudge when I was coming out of York on a 91+Mk4s forming the 07:00 Newcastle - Kings Cross one morning in the 1990s. We were unusually signalled out on the Leeds lines and over the ladder at Colton. I'm guessing that the driver was distracted by something as there was an emergency brake application from full speed and the crossing of the ladder at rather more than the limit. The 07:00 was a Pullman with full breakfast service at that time and there were one or two who had to wipe some cooked breakfast from their laps. Could have been a lot worse so we should be thankful.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 05/11/2020 at 13:09 by postal
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 06/11/2020 at 08:02 #133615
Stephen Fulcher
Avatar
1659 posts
clive in post 133554 said:
Stephen Fulcher in post 133529 said:
No slow trains on the Western.
You've clearly never ridden Looe to Liskeard.
Many times when I worked down there.

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 06/11/2020 at 12:57 #133616
lazzer
Avatar
516 posts
clive in post 133554 said:
Stephen Fulcher in post 133529 said:
No slow trains on the Western.
You've clearly never ridden Looe to Liskeard.
Hey! We get up to 40mph down there

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 06/11/2020 at 18:14 #133638
Stephen Fulcher
Avatar
1659 posts
It was doing a signal sighting cab ride to Gunnislake that cost me the will to live
Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 06/11/2020 at 18:31 #133642
Steamer
Avatar
3453 posts
Online
Stephen Fulcher in post 133638 said:
It was doing a signal sighting cab ride to Gunnislake that cost me the will to live
I presume 'Fixed distant board sighting' would be a more accurate description?

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 06/11/2020 at 22:10 #133651
Stephen Fulcher
Avatar
1659 posts
That and level crossing signage yes.

The boredom issue is largely the very low line speed, especially beyond Bere Alston.

Log in to reply
Approach control discussion (ex Chester FAQ) 07/11/2020 at 00:46 #133663
TUT
Avatar
314 posts
Online
We had to caution a 20-odd wagon freight train through the 5 mile section from Claydon L&NE Jcn (New) to Calvert at 5 mph! Virtually arrow straight as well, apart from a slight curve. Can you imagine? It must have been agony!
Log in to reply