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Bug with Rules

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Bug with Rules 12/02/2021 at 15:31 #137176
9pN1SEAp
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Hi,

This occurred in Will's MP game and I was able to reproduce.

When chained, 2K99 departing WMB towards WFJ gets marked as entered on Wembley Sim. Simultaneously (or almost?) the return working 2K00 MKC-EUS, which is linked by rule "must appear X minutes after 2K99 leaves the area", is also marked as entered. It's not due for some significant time later.

Both events occur before Wembley has transferred the working to Watford.

I've attached the save a couple mins prior.

It may be worthy to note that 2K99 itself has an entry time rule in WFJ for non-chained mode, to allow it time to shuttle to EUS and back. That rule and the failed rule are both marked as used.

Thanks
Jamie

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Jamie S (JAMS)
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Bug with Rules 12/02/2021 at 15:39 #137178
Albert
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I think 2K99 is marked as entered to prevent the rule from coming into action, i.e. the train will enter as soon as WFJ hands it back to WMB, instead of using the rule.

Either sim may then still use rules to determine return workings for trains falling off the chain, which should work as usual.

AJP in games
Last edited: 12/02/2021 at 15:41 by Albert
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Bug with Rules 12/02/2021 at 17:07 #137182
9pN1SEAp
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Alas, the problem is then with 2K00 not coming back as it's been marked entered, even though it's not due for over 3 hours' time. It indeed never entered!
Jamie S (JAMS)
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Bug with Rules 12/02/2021 at 17:16 #137183
Meld
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Simple fix - Use UIDs for the rules instead of the headcodes, as the headcodes may not be unique.
Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
Last edited: 12/02/2021 at 17:28 by Meld
Reason: None given

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Bug with Rules 12/02/2021 at 17:18 #137184
Albert
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9pN1SEAp in post 137182 said:
Alas, the problem is then with 2K00 not coming back as it's been marked entered, even though it's not due for over 3 hours' time. It indeed never entered!
2K00 should enter on the Watford sim from the north, right?

If it does not re-enter Watford, this is an issue with the Watford timetable rather than with the Wembley one.

AJP in games
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Bug with Rules 13/02/2021 at 10:33 #137197
9pN1SEAp
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The headcode is unique. Watford sim is marking 2K00 (MKC-EUS) as entered when it has never done so.
Jamie S (JAMS)
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Bug with Rules 13/02/2021 at 13:41 #137200
tjtbcork
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I've also seen this problem while running Wembley and Watford Jnc. A bug with chaining and rules.

What seems to be happening is that 2K99 gets to Wembley Central. Watford Jnc marks 2K99 entered. Because of the chain 2K99 is still in Wembley. Watford Jnc rule that 2K00 can't enter until x minutes after 2K99 leaves the sim gets used and 2K00 gets marked entered. 2K99 then enters Watford Jnc sim but 2K00 never enters.

Problem happens with other trains with rules. Effects most 2k and some 2T train.
Same problem with 2M and 2O trains with rules in Wembley Sim.

Only happens when Chained.

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Bug with Rules 13/02/2021 at 20:26 #137211
Albert
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9pN1SEAp in post 137197 said:
The headcode is unique. Watford sim is marking 2K00 (MKC-EUS) as entered when it has never done so.
In that case I was confused by your first post, which referred to Wembley sim marking it as entered.

Does the time 2K99 & 2K00 are marked as entered coincide with 2K99 appearing in the approach berth on Watford? As I'm not sure that chained sims have any knowledge of trains that are still further away.

AJP in games
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Bug with Rules 14/02/2021 at 15:01 #137226
9pN1SEAp
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Hi Albert,

Yes, I meant to say the bug is on Wembley. The mark-entered on both 2K00 and 2K99 is occurring as the down train reaches WMBY but before it's lit on the approach berth (when the sims start syncing the stpeping-up)

Jamie S (JAMS)
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Bug with Rules 14/02/2021 at 15:05 #137227
headshot119
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Are you able to provide save(s) just before the trains / rules get marked as used? That might help us track down what the issue is.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Bug with Rules 14/02/2021 at 17:22 #137232
9pN1SEAp
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I have them about 5 mins before, see OP
Jamie S (JAMS)
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Bug with Rules 14/02/2021 at 17:28 #137233
headshot119
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Can you narrow down the exactish point at which the marking happens in those saves?

EDIT

Just to add, I'm trying to work out if it does it at the same point every time, and if it does what that same point is which might help narrow down what the cause is.

Chained simulations don't know anything about a train until it transitions between them, which is usually long after the adjoining sim sees it approaching.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
Last edited: 14/02/2021 at 17:44 by headshot119
Reason: None given

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Bug with Rules 14/02/2021 at 21:00 #137236
GeoffM
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9pN1SEAp in post 137226 said:
Hi Albert,

Yes, I meant to say the bug is on Wembley. The mark-entered on both 2K00 and 2K99 is occurring as the down train reaches WMBY but before it's lit on the approach berth (when the sims start syncing the stpeping-up)
The sims don't synchronise until the train reaches a specific handover track - at this point the train will be in both F2 lists. Before then, the receiving sim has no knowledge of the approaching train, though of course the TD will have shown up beforehand. Rules happen on train movements, not on TDs.

SimSig Boss
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Bug with Rules 14/02/2021 at 22:39 #137241
JamesN
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I have a theory that I’ve shared with headshot119 off-forum (as I’m at work and can’t test it).

I’ll have a play when I’ve woken up after getting home from work in the morning.

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Bug with Rules 14/02/2021 at 23:27 #137242
9pN1SEAp
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2K99 arrived WMB 01:43:52 (on-time) and was stationary at the bug time 01:44:00. Timetabled as a.01:44:0 d.01:45:0 and EDNSLOW 01:45:0.

Starter WM341 shows green aspect with routing set on the Down Slow through to WFJ and KLGL.

On Watford sim, 2K99 was marked entered at exactly 01:44:00 whilst the train was stationary on Platform 5 (DSL), it appears not to have commenced cross-sim activities (nor should it) and so there is something possibly weird with the rules' duty cycle.

Snapshots at 01:43 attached, [6A05 will SG, send WAIT]

Thanks
Jamie

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Bug with Rules 15/03/2021 at 12:25 #137843
9pN1SEAp
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Hi,

Did anyone identify a possible cause for the bug?

Thanks
Jamie

Jamie S (JAMS)
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Bug with Rules 18/06/2021 at 19:41 #140079
GeoffM
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On Watford, 2K99 gets cancelled in effect because it knows it is expected to come in from the chained simulation, Wembley. Because 2K00 directly relies on 2K99 exiting, and 2K99 shows as not running, it also gets marked as cancelled.

I don't have a solution for this just yet. Mantis 33879.

SimSig Boss
Last edited: 18/06/2021 at 19:44 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

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Bug with Rules 18/06/2021 at 20:01 #140080
GeoffM
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Turns out it was easier than expected. Done.

However, there are complex scenarios of chains/rules where there may still be unexpected results - typically for things that will not run (Y/Q paths, mutexes, etc).

SimSig Boss
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Bug with Rules 18/06/2021 at 21:25 #140082
9pN1SEAp
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Thanks Geoff,

I'll test this out as the rules on WFJ (for MKC shuttles and for EUS turnarounds) caused trains to be marked entered hours in advance as the rules triggered a cascade.

Jamie S (JAMS)
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